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無穀貓糧對貓有害嗎?

Is Grain Free Cat Food Bad for Cats? An Interview with Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM

Thank you again to Dr. Jean for taking the time to talk to Floppycats about grain free cat food for cats. 

You can learn more about cat health by reading Dr. Jean’s book, The Complete Guide to Holistic Cat Care: An Illustrated Handbook as well as proper cat nutrition: What Cats Should Eat: How to Keep Your Cat Healthy with Good Food (She's currently updating this as you’ll discover in the interview below)

全部的訪問在原本的影片中:英聽不錯的建議聽完,內容適合初級、進階貓奴

Transcription of Is Grain Free Cat Food Bad for Cats? An Interview with Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM

Jenny Dean:
Hi, Floppycatters. Today, we have the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Jean Hofve, who is a longtime holistic cat veterinarian who lives in Colorado. She has a couple of books on Amazon, The Complete Guide to Holistic Cat Care as well as What Cats Should Eat. Dr. Jean is currently revising her What Cats Should Eat and I’m going to let her talk about that a little bit more. Dr. Jean, thank you for doing another interview with us.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
My pleasure. Good to talk to you.

Jenny Dean:
Before we started recording, you had mentioned to me that you are revising your What Cats Should Eat and I will include a link to your Little Big Cat website as well as your Little Big Cat Facebook group so that people can get notified of when that revision is up. But can you talk a little bit about what you’re revising it for?

在我們開始錄音前,妳提到妳正在修改妳已出版的書「貓該吃什麼」,可以談談妳為什麼要修改嗎?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
The big thing is the research that’s come out in the last little while about phosphorus levels in cat food and turns out that even healthy cats will show kidney damage eating high phosphorus foods. Now, meat is the primary source of phosphorus but what they do, they add extra phosphorus because cats like the taste of phosphate and it turns out that some of the phosphorus levels in cat foods are incredibly high.

最近有個研究指出貓糧中的磷含量很高時會讓就算是健康貓也會表現出腎臟損傷。肉是其中主要的磷來源,但是因為貓很喜歡磷的味道,所以寵物食品商會額外添加磷而造成高磷含量。

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
In my book, What Cats Should Eat, I always put in an updated list of the brands and flavors that I recommend or that I think are okay, maybe not. I might not recommend them but for the sake of people having a variety of foods to choose from, I have a list of things that are acceptable.

在我的書中,我會不斷更新我覺得還可以的品牌及口味。我不見得覺得這些完全值得推薦,但是這可以增加貓咪食物的多樣性。

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
It turns out that a lot of the ones that I thought were pretty good actually when you look at the phosphorus content, they’re not so good. So I’ve revamped the whole thing, that whole list, and added a whole bunch of new stuff. I’ve added information for people in Europe and Australia and Asia because I realized that people around the world want to know what to feed their cat and it’s not just us here in the U.S. It’s expanded its little self from… It started out as 14 pages and now, it’s 166 pages.

結果我發現有些我本來覺得不錯的品項的磷含量並不是那麼好。所以我大幅度的修改了整個列表,也加進了一些新的東西。我新增了一些歐洲、澳洲、亞洲讀者需要的資訊。因為我發現不只是美國的貓奴想知道應該給貓吃什麼。

It’s out for formatting right now. So I expect to have it published in the next couple of weeks. But you can look at my website, littlebigcat.com, or especially on the Little Big Cat’s Facebook page and I’ll have that updated as soon as it’s ready to go. I wouldn’t suggest buying the current version because we’re probably going to have to take that down and republish it so you wouldn’t automatically get an update if I just updated it, but it’s so new and different that I’m going to have to start from scratch. That’s where we’re at on that.

Jenny Dean:
Okay. That is only going to be available in a digital format, correct?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
For now, I am going to have it formatted for paperback so it’ll be a print on demand and it’ll be available from Amazon and who knows else when the time comes. There’re a lot of people who want a hard copy.

Jenny Dean:
I have experienced that. That’s why I asked. All right. When I originally emailed you asking if you are game for another interview, one of the topics that you came back to me with was that you wanted to talk about grain-free cat food and taurine and I would like to know why. But I think it already has to do with what you just mentioned about your book.

我一開始電郵問妳是否想再來一場訪問時,妳提到有個項目妳很想談談。就是無穀貓糧以及牛磺酸,我想知道妳為什麼特別想談這個。

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Yeah. It’s not specific to that but a couple years ago, around July 2018, the FDA published an alarm about grain-free dog foods causing heart disease in dogs and they talked about, “Oh, it’s this boutique and legumes and potatoes.” It turns out none of that is correct but it became a big, big thing and people are still very concerned about it. There’s so much misinformation about it. I thought, “This should be a good opportunity to set the record straight.” Perry says he would like me to straighten out the record, too.

大約在2018年7月時,FDA發布了一個對於無穀狗糧的警訊,認為無穀狗糧內的豆類與馬鈴薯會造成狗的心臟疾病。結果發現根本錯誤,所以我想這是個好機會向大家說明這個錯誤。

Jenny Dean:
Well, good. I’ve been wondering about this myself only because I know from reading Dr. Lisa Pierson’s website that what a dog needs is different than what a cat needs but I think maybe in the pet food industry, especially for consumers who aren’t highly educated on that, it seems right when you hear something about dogs then you assume the same about cats.

我從Lisa Pierson醫師的網站中讀到狗和貓的需求並不相同,但是我想很多不是很懂的飼主會看到狗的警訊就覺得在貓身上也一樣。

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Cats are a little different but the principles are the same.

貓是有些不同,但是大原則是一樣的。

Jenny Dean:
Did you want to talk in general about if grain free is good or bad or do you want me to start asking some of the questions that Floppycats’ readers had about grain-free food?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Let me just riff for a few minutes about the whole taurine thing. Taurine is an amino acid and amino acids in the body are generally used to build proteins and enzymes and things like that.

讓我先簡單的用幾分鐘談談牛磺酸,牛磺酸是一種胺基酸,而胺基酸在身體裡主要用來建構蛋白質、酵素等等物質。

Taurine is really different. It’s not used as a structural protein at all. It’s almost a hormone. It has a lot of special functions. It’s found primarily in bile which helps break down dietary fat. It’s really important in the muscles, eyes, brain, and immune system. It’s an antioxidant. It’s anti-inflammatory. It’s a really interesting little molecule.

牛磺酸和其他胺基酸很不同,他不是用來建構蛋白質,反而跟賀爾蒙非常類似。他有一些很特別的功能。牛磺酸大多是在用來分解脂肪的膽汁中被發現。牛磺酸對肌肉、眼睛、腦部和免疫系統都非常重要,他也具有抗氧化、抗發炎的功能,是個非常有趣的小分子。

Dogs can make their own taurine for the most part and the precursors or other sulfur-containing amino acids, methionine and cysteine. The way it works is it was thought that originally that if you had those precursors that dogs and cats could make their own taurine that turned out to be not quite true.

狗大多可以自行合成牛磺酸及其前驅物與含硫胺基酸、蛋胺酸、半胱胺酸。本來研究認為只要狗和貓有牛磺酸的前驅物就都可以自行合成牛磺酸,但後來都證實是錯誤的。

 

In the ’80s, some guys at University of California at Davis figured out that a whole tens of thousands of cats were going blind or dying of heart failure and they figured out that it was due to taurine deficiency.

在80年代,加州大學的學者發現非常多的貓咪因為牛磺酸缺乏造成眼盲或心臟疾病而死亡。

Now, why it was the taurine deficient? Well, at that point in the ’80s, pet food manufacturers were dialing in how to make more money and the way they thought about making more money is that they would reduce the amount of the most expensive ingredient which was meat. The most expensive ingredient is protein, meat protein, and so they said, “We can make protein out of corn gluten meal and some other stuff.” They started substituting more and more grain protein for meat and turns out cats died when you do that.

在80年代時,寵物食品製造商為了賺更多錢,他們必須減少比較貴的原料--肉。最貴的成分是動物性蛋白質,所以他們開始使用越來越多的穀類蛋白質來代替肉,結果就造成很多貓咪因此死亡。

Eventually, pet foods or cat foods were supplemented with taurine and the epidemic of thousands of cats dying of heart disease went away. The particular heart disease is called dilated cardiomyopathy and I have dilated cardiomyopathy myself so I can tell you exactly what it is. The heart loses strength and because of the blood pressure in the heart, the walls stretch and when they stretch, the muscle fibers can’t contract properly anymore. The heart just lays there and goes flippity-flop and it’s not really accomplishing much in the way of pumping blood in and out. It’s a pretty unpleasant disease.

最終,寵物食品開始加入牛磺酸後,貓咪因心臟疾病而死亡的事件就因此消失。這個心臟疾病叫做擴張性心肌病,這會讓心臟沒有力量,而因為心臟內的血壓使心臟壁擴張,進而造成心肌纖維沒有辦法正常縮回。心臟就只是躺在那沒辦法正常將血液送進送出,是個非常不舒服的疾病。

Of course with cats, they hide signs of disease until the last possible second. Typically, even now, if cat is diagnosed with heart disease, it really is probably within a few weeks of death. They can be treated but it’s unusual to be able to get them back at that point because the disease is usually very advanced by the time they show symptoms.

貓非常會隱藏不適感,通常當貓咪被確診心臟疾病的時候,距離死亡已經不遠了。這是個可以被治療的疾病,但是到貓咪表現出症狀時已經很難再救回。

Taurine is supplemented in all cat foods. There’s a fair benefit. They’ve figured it out. They figured how much they needed and AAFCO set new minimums and things have been just hunky dory ever since.

在所有貓糧中都有添加牛磺酸,因為AAFCO研究出貓咪所需要的量,也制定了牛磺酸在貓糧中應有的最低含量。

In dogs, it’s a little different because dogs are supposed to be able to make their own taurine. Turns out certain breeds and certain lines of breeds can’t. Turns out the biggest dogs have such a slow rate of taurine synthesis that they often can’t keep up. So, Newfoundlands and Golden Retrievers, they still get taurine deficiency cardiomyopathy.

狗的話則有點不同,本來以為狗應該要都能自行合成牛磺酸,結果發現某些品種的狗無法。許多大型狗合成牛磺酸的速度太慢,跟不上他們所需要的量。所以像是紐芬蘭犬及黃金獵犬,就還是容易會有因牛磺酸缺乏而造成的心臟疾病。

Then the FDA apparently noticed that a whole bunch of dogs were getting dilated cardiomyopathy, not of the susceptible breeds, and they started looking at it and they immediately jumped to the conclusion that it was taurine and it’s these grain-free foods because a certain larger than expected percentage of dogs are eating grain-free foods.

後來FDA發現很多狗得到擴張性心肌病,就去調查這件事,然後直接跳到結論是因為牛磺酸,然後因為很多案件中的狗是吃無穀狗糧,就說是無穀狗糧造成的。

The problem is that dogs can get dilated cardiomyopathy for no particular reason. It turns out the diet is a factor in less than 30% of dogs with dilated cardiomyopathy or DCM. Taurine may not even be the culprit. Some of the newer research says, “It may be the microbiome.” It turns out in the ’80s with the cats, it was entirely due to the microbiome. The food may have had enough taurine in it but the bacteria in the gut were stealing it. Turns out they really like taurine and they were scooping it up and the cats were becoming deficient. Processing and the microbiome and all that is probably the bigger factor.

事實上是狗會因不特定的原因而得到擴張性心肌病,而飲食只佔了其中不到30%。牛磺酸可能不是罪魁禍首,有些較新的研究指出可能是微生物群。結果80年代的貓咪大量死亡事件,完全是因為微生物群。食物內可能已經含有足量的牛磺酸,但是腸子內的細菌把牛磺酸吃光光了。微生物群非常喜歡牛磺酸,因此造成貓咪的牛磺酸缺乏。

However, taurine is a variable kind of guy. Different meats have different amounts of it. As long as you’re feeding a good quantity and quality of meat, you’re probably fine but when you’re talking about commercial pet food quality and quantity, not a sure thing. For some reason, the FDA focused on these boutique foods.

不同的肉類的牛磺酸含量不同。只要你是給予高品質與足量的肉,你應不用擔心牛磺酸的缺乏。但是市售寵物食品的品質則不一定。不知道為什麼,FDA在調查先前提到的那個案件的時候,針對了某些精品品牌。

One of the questions that we’ll get to was that if these grain free, boutique foods that are problems that… How should I say this? There’s a Facebook group, DCM cardiomyopathy or something like that and I can give you that.

Jenny Dean:
Yes, somebody mentioned that.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Great pitch if you only look at that chart. I looked at the charts. The advice that people are giving each other on that page, terrible advice, terrible conclusions, not good. But the charts are extremely interesting. I went through early on and analyze the first 19 cases I found and 15 of the cases of these supposedly boutique pet foods… Out of 19, 15 of them were made by like Purina, Mars, Hill’s and Champion.

我仔細去看了網路上分享的19個相關案件中,其中15個案件說給狗吃的是精品品牌,但其實是像Purina、Mars、Hill's和Champion這些廠出來的品牌。

The last time I checked Purina was not a boutique brand. They own almost all of these boutique brands or almost all of them are owned by the big dogs. Somebody asks about Blue Buffalo, yeah, sorry, bought out by General Mills and quality took a nosedive, Nutro owned by Mars. So you know that the quality is already questionable when you’re talking about these big guys. And then FDA was all, “Oh, potatoes and legumes and all these peas and lentils and blah, blah, blah.” That turns out to be not entirely accurate either.

他們旗下有很多"精品"品牌,但是這些大廠的品質是很令人質疑的。但是FDA一看就覺得"喔,這些食品裡都有豆類、豌豆扁豆之類的,所以一定是因為這個造成犬隻得到擴張性心肌病"

What I have found looking at the actual ingredients of the actual brands that were problems, one of them was a kangaroo-based food and the ingredients were kangaroo meat and then seven kinds of legume. So peas, pea starch, lentils, yellow lentils, green lentils, red lentils. The problem is just like it was in the ’80s, manufacturers substituting incomplete proteins for meat.

我去看了這些狗實際上吃的那些問題品牌中的成分,其中一個品牌的原料主要是袋鼠肉,以及其他7種不同的豆類。豌豆、豌豆澱粉、扁豆、黃扁豆、綠扁豆、紅扁豆之類的。這些豆類都是用來替代被他們拿掉的肉類所含有的蛋白質。

Now, the problem with kangaroo in particular, all meats are complete proteins. They contain all the essential amino acids including taurine but some of them have more or less taurine, poultry and fish high in taurine, red meat, beef, venison, lamb, and kangaroo low in taurine. You take a low taurine meat and you cook it up with five or seven kinds of legumes, now you have a problem, especially when you’re talking about… I got seven legumes in the food and some of them are like pea starch and pea fiber. There’s no taurine in plants.

雖然所有肉類都含有完整的蛋白質,但是某些肉類的牛磺酸含量比較少,像是禽肉和魚就很多,紅肉的牛肉、鹿肉、羊肉以及鹿肉比較少。這個袋鼠肉糧的問題是,他用了已經是牛磺酸含量較低的袋鼠肉,然後又用一堆豆類去補蛋白質,而植物中是沒有牛磺酸的。

Now, you have a situation where you have a named meat at the top, which theoretically a good thing although if you read my book, you’ll find out why that’s a bunch of boo and I’m trying to be polite here…

Jenny Dean:
Yes.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Yeah. But if you look at it logically, you’ve got a meat and it’s borderline in taurine and then you got seven kinds of plant materials. When you look at by weight, the plant materials outweigh the meat by a lot. So, the problem is the amount of plant proteins and plant fractions, not per se that they’re peas and starch because I think 20% of the originally “bad” foods that were implicated, they had grains in them. It was not all health based foods.

所以你會看到這個寵糧的成分表內第一項是肉,然後後面跟著一串植物,然後發現植物的含量加起來比肉還多。所以問題是在於植物性蛋白質和植物含量太多,而不是這些豆類本身。

Basically, there’s not a lot of commonality with all those foods except they’ve got poor quality meat and a ton of plants. Same problem as before. Same problem again.

Now in this whole thing, cats have been affected by this taurine thing and cats have developed DCM on modern diets about it, I think nine or eight documented.

The other thing with the FDA is that when you look at the list of foods implicated, the list goes back 15 years. This is not a modern problem. It’s just more obvious now because we have social media and people are more apt to report things and say things and tell other people about it and the vets are getting together and saying, “Hey, wait a minute,” but it’s not grain free that’s doing it, it probably has to do with the microbiome deferentially stealing the taurine but it’s really how they’re manufactured and what products are in them.

If you have a meat but the meat is overwhelmed by the amount of plant materials in the food, you’re going to have a problem whether the carbohydrate is corn or peas or potatoes, it’s all the same kind of thing.

如果寵物食品裡面有肉,但是肉的含量遠低於植物時,不管這些碳水化合物的來源是玉米、豌豆還是馬鈴薯,這都會造成大問題。

If you look at your label and you have three or four plant proteins, you got whole lentils and you got pea fiber, two or three or four, you’re probably fine especially if it’s a meat that has a fair amount of taurine which is poultry primarily is the best source. Fish is a good source too. But there’s a lot of problems with fish in cat food, too. We can talk about that another day.

如果你看寵糧上的標示,上面寫了三到四種植物性蛋白質來源,這還可以接受,因為這表示肉的含量還夠提供足量牛磺酸,尤其如果是禽肉。

I don’t want people to freak out because it isn’t really about the grain-free foods. It isn’t really about which carbohydrates are in the food. The fact is that all dry foods have a lot of carbohydrate in them and they’re not ideal for cats because cats don’t use carbohydrates. They digest them fine. They absorb them fine and they immediately turn them into fat. Dry foods with lots of carbs are already a bad idea for cats. We got to use more common sense and look at what cats are designed to eat and feed them an appropriate diet which is like not a lot of these things.

我不想要大家開始恐慌想說到底無穀貓糧能不能給,貓糧中的碳水化合物才是真正的問題,不管是不是來自穀物。所有的乾糧都含有非常多的碳水化合物,這對貓並不是個理想的食物,因為貓不會用碳水化合物。他們可以消化吸收碳水化合物,但是這些會直接轉化成脂肪。我們必須更聰明的去理解貓在大自然設計這個生物時,決定了他們應該要吃哪種食物,而碳水化合物並不是其一。

Jenny Dean:
I often find these conversations a little on the depressing side only because it seems like consumers are set up for failure when it comes to wanting to give their cat the best diet and thinking that… You want to trust a commercial about Blue Buffalo and not have to figure out whether or not they’re owned by Mars or Purina or whatever. It’s just exhausting.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
I know. It’s disheartening. It really is. I tell you I have a habit of going to Petco or PetSmart and prowling the aisles with the clipboard and reading ingredients. I make the employees very nervous. I’ll go-

Jenny Dean:
I was going to ask, do you get stopped?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
No. No one ever ask. They never-

Jenny Dean:
Really?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
They stand far away and stare. It’s hilarious. Try it. It will crack you up. They’re waiting for you to ask them something but if you just say it and silently go through… But I have gone through every cat food in the aisle and left thinking there’s not one of these that I would feed my cat. Not a one.

If I’m in a mellow mood, I can find a few that aren’t too bad but commercial pet food, it’s such a racket and you can trust nobody and even if you trust that a truly boutique cat food company really is trying to do a better job, they’re up against it. They can’t do it and stay in business. They have to make a profit or they go under. Even the ones that are trying real hard…we can’t build a better mouse. A mouse is a mouse and it will never replace everything that’s in it.

就算是所謂的"精品品牌"也不能信任,因為就算他們真的想要好好地做寵糧,他們還是必須要賺錢,不然沒辦法繼續生存。不管寵物食品廠商多麼努力,沒有什麼能夠比得上貓在大自然所獵捕到的生物,沒有食品可以代替老鼠。

For one thing, every animal that is slaughtered for food that ends up being in pet food with the exception of whole fish, I will say, the first thing they do is hang them upside down and bleed them out. We’re missing the blood. There’s a lot of taurine in blood. There’s a lot of hormones. There’s a lot of proteins. There’s a whole lot of really important things in blood. So we cannot replicate that.

還有,寵糧內用到的肉,在動物被宰殺時第一件事就是放血(除了整條魚),而血中含有非常多的牛磺酸、賀爾蒙、蛋白質,這些血中的營養成分非常重要也是我們沒辦法複製添加到食品內的。

This whole trying to build a better mouse is never going to happen. Commercial stuff is never going to be ideal for our cats. It can be pretty good, but it’s never going to be perfect. Anybody that tells you different blowing smoke.

市售食品可以是很好的食品,但永遠不會是貓的完美食物。

Jenny Dean:
Agreed. I often get questions about cat nutrition which I usually field off to catinfo.org or a page on my site that includes your books and our interviews and catinfo.org because I don’t feel comfortable answering any of those questions. But I always say if I could get my cats to eat raw that’s what they’d be on. But when I did make homemade raw, because I tried every avenue to try to get them to eat raw, taurine was one of the things that we had to add to it and it was crucial. I think it’s the recipe that’s on catinfo.org that we followed at the time. What is an ideal cat diet if you could make one?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
I would take mice and grind them up and say, “Here you go, Perry.” You can get frozen mice that are bred for snakes. They can be frozen in a bag. But you’re not going to eat that and most cats won’t because they’re… Cats’ food preferences are formed in kittenhood and whatever mom ate that’s what they prefer. As they get older if they are not exposed to a variety of foods, they may come to expect that Cat Chow is the only thing on the planet that actually is food and they won’t touch anything else. Cats are difficult.

我當然可以買冷凍老鼠來放到絞肉機給貓吃,但是貓大多不會吃,因為貓對於食物的喜好在幼貓時就形成,他們喜歡吃貓媽媽吃的。在成長的過程中他們如果沒有接觸到不同的食物,他們可能會認定只有某個東西才是食物,其他的一律不吃。貓就是這麼機八。

What I do for my guy, if he eats raw, if he eats some canned food. Right now I’ve got this grass-fed organ meat supplement. This got little bits of all the organ meats round up and he’s eating it. I just feel I had to supplement everything and cat’s daily requirement for taurine is about 80 or 90 mg. So I would say a minimum 125 mg in each day’s meal. I would see it homemade or something like Stella & Chewy’s, he likes that. That’s a really good option.

貓每天的牛磺酸需求量約80-90mg,我會建議每天給最少125mg。

This cat that I have, he’s a rescue and he was starving to death. You would think he wouldn’t be picky about food. Oh, no. But I actually have him on… His kidneys are shot from having been on the streets and nearly starved to death. I actually have him on an appetite stimulant so he will eat what I think is best for him because otherwise, he will only eat garbage. But I’m in a position where I can enforce the rules. I can tell him, “You will eat this,” and he will.

The freeze dried raws are good. I have a major variety of raw things when I feed freeze dried chicken and a variety of things. Just a variety. The problem with not feeding variety is that’s when you get problems like this. You feed them the same thing all the time without variation for years at a time. If the food is excessive or deficient in some respect, that’s going to be a problem.

冷凍乾燥生食很好。我給貓吃很多不同的冷凍乾燥生食。食物的多樣性是重點,你如果長期只給同一種食物,而這個食物裡面有某個東西含量不足或是過剩,長期下來都是個問題。

Remember the Menu Foods, the melamine disaster. People were just only feeding one brand or one flavor or something. Even brands that I like, that I respect like Wellness, they went through a period where the foods are thiamine deficient.

I have a friend who runs a cat rescue. She lost all the kittens and half the adults because they only fed Wellness. The problem affected all of the Wellness products. If she had been feeding a variety, never would have a problem.

我有個朋友是做貓中途的。他因為只餵Wellness這個牌子,之前Wellness出硫胺素缺乏問題的時候很多貓咪因此過世。如果他當時不只給這個牌子,這就不會發生了。

I don’t trust anybody. I don’t rely on any one thing to take care of my cat. I’m going to feed all bunch of things and he’s going to, by God, eat them. 

我不相信任何食品,我不會依賴一種食品來照顧我的貓,我會給各式各樣不同的東西。

Jenny Dean:
What is the appetite stimulant that you give him?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Mirtazapine. I have it formulated by a pharmacy. It now comes in generic but it’s a very low dose. I don’t think it’s effective. It’s not cost effective and I don’t think it’s as good. If you have a cat with a poor appetite like this cat, even if I gave him all the junk food he wanted, he’s still too thin. He was really wrecked for being on the streets for so long. He’s got little round ears because his ear tips fell off from frostbite and he’s a wreck. Poor little guy. But he’s going to be as healthy as I can force him to be.

Jenny Dean:
I like it.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
We can only do the best we can but if you feed a variety, feed a mixture of meats, if you want to feed kangaroo just for change or beaver, fine. I’ve done that. I make sure there’s a fair amount of poultry and a fair amount of this and that and the other thing I’m not a big fan of fish for cats. There’s extensive article on Little Big Cat about that and it’ll be in my e-book – why fish is dangerous for cats? I don’t like it. For a treat once in a while, oh, heck yeah, why not?

我們只能盡量做到最好,你在給不同食物的時候,給不同的肉類,偶爾想給袋鼠甚至海狸,都可以! 我會盡量給足量的禽肉,而魚並不是我的首選。但偶爾給魚的當作零食,有何不可?

It’s very, very difficult and I am constantly frustrated and I can’t even imagine how people who aren’t veterinarians must be completely confused and I feel so bad about that. That’s why I write articles and books and stuff to try and help people understand what’s going on but it’s a mess, Jenny. It’s a freaking mess.

Jenny Dean:
It is a mess. Even if you’re a veterinarian. Sometimes, I’ve heard pretty poor advice from veterinarians that contradicts the conversations I’ve had with you.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
When I was in vet school, we had half a semester on nutrition out of four years, half a semester. At the end of that I could formulate a sheep ration but the dog and cat lecture was one, two-hour lecture taught by a guy from Hill’s who came in and said, “AD is for anorexia, CD is for cystitis, DD is for dermatology, GD is for geriatrics, K is for kidneys, any questions?” That was Colorado State University in the ’90s. They’ve gotten better and a lot of schools have gotten better but nevertheless most vet schools have their nutrition departments headed by someone who is, I wouldn’t say on the payroll I shouldn’t say that, but the chair in nutrition is funded by Purina or Hill’s in most of the vet schools.

我在獸醫學校的時候,在四年的時間內,我們有半學期會學到營養相關課程。在課程結束時,我學會怎麼調配羊的食物,但是犬貓的部分只有一堂兩小時的課程,講師還是Hill's來的。他進來就說「AD是給厭食症吃的,CD是給泌尿道疾病吃的,DD是給皮膚病吃的,GD是給老犬貓吃的,KD是給腎臟病吃的,有其他問題嗎?」。這就是90年代的科羅拉多大學,他們現在有改進了,但是很多獸醫學校很多都是受到某些大廠牌的"贊助"。

You can’t trust anybody. I’m sorry. I wish I had better news. Information is the best defense. Keep researching.

Jenny Dean:
Well, I want to get through some of these reader questions. Some of them might be a little bit repetitive but if you don’t mind answering them so that it’s clear, I would appreciate it.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
No problem.

Jenny Dean:
I’ll include a link. This interview is going to be on YouTube and on Floppycats. The transcription will be on Floppycats and then the recording will be on YouTube. I’ll include links to everything that I say. I’ll include links in the About section of the YouTube video but also hyperlinks within the text on Floppycats. This posts on our Facebook page a reader named Jen asked, “Is grain free bad to feed your pets? I’ve been hearing and reading conflicting opinions on this lately.” You’ve answered this already but if you could just say it one more time, please.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Grain free is not bad. It’s no worse than grain containing foods. Maybe marginally better. Problem with grain containing foods is things like the shoshu ingredients like brown rice. Brown rice and rice are full of arsenic. Brown rice, the rice bran actually interferes with guess what? Taurine. The great corn, it’s all genetically modified. I am not a fan of grains.

無穀糧並不是個不好的東西。他不會比含穀糧還差。含穀糧的問題在於某些成分像是糙米,糙米和米含有很多的砷,尤其是糙米的殼會干擾牛磺酸,而玉米很多是基改的,所以我並不是很喜歡穀類。

Cats aren’t particularly inclined to get allergic to grains or legumes or potatoes. If cat’s going to form an allergy, it’s going to form allergy and it’s going to find an excuse to do that which is why I feed a variety and I rotate around from time to time because allergies developed to things that they’re exposed to over and over for a period of time. Variety, variety, variety = you will stay out of trouble.

貓並不是特別對穀類、豆類或馬鈴薯過敏。過敏需要長期重複性的給予相同的過敏原才會產生,所以我說食物多樣性會讓你避免這些問題。

The reason that those are in there in the first place is because they want the carbohydrates to make the machinery work and to make the food cheaper to produce because carbohydrates are cheap calories. Any carb is as bad as any other carb, I guess I would say.

Jenny Dean:
Yes. The variety thing, variety thing reminds me of, I don’t… Maybe it was you but some veterinarian told me about a cat… I think it was my vet though. This cat was fed only a Fancy Feast variety that was like fish and shrimp or something like that. But the cat became so particular about it that it only ate a certain lot number.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
That was me actually.

Jenny Dean:
It was you? Okay. Maybe I told my vet and she said that she had a cat that’s obsessed with fish and shrimp too. But yes, they had to go everywhere to find the lot number.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
It was awful. It was a Friskies food and she was desperate. She had 141 cans left. When she ran out of food, the cat was going to die because it was going to get a hepatic lipidosis. She wouldn’t eat anything else. She needed to start right then and start incorporating other foods. One molecule at a time if you have to. It is always possible to get a cat to change what it’s eating but it’s not a necessarily a fast process and you have to be sneakier than a cat which is a pretty good trick.

我遇過一隻貓只吃Friskies的某個生產編號的某個口味,那個飼主只剩下141罐,當他餵完後,這隻什麼都不吃的貓就會因為脂肪肝而死亡。飼主必須趕快開始加入其他的食物,一次一小滴也好,貓咪是可以改變他食物偏好的,這不一定會是個快速的過程,你必須比貓還聰明小心。

I had two cats, started feeding him raw, Shinnok ate the raw immediately, loved it. She was fed raw for three years before I ever saw Spirit take a bite of it. Three years.

我有兩隻貓吃生食,其中一隻很快就接受,另一隻花了三年才吃了一小口。

Jenny Dean:
Now you know why I haven’t been successful in switching my cats to raw.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
One of Jackson’s [Jackson Galaxy] cats was just as bad. He never did eat canned food. He would eat a variety of dry at least. He could be fed a variety of raw. Darn, man. They know from the start.

Jenny Dean:
I know. We talked about mice before. I ended up several years ago because one of my readers does the whole Frankenprey thing. To say just in case someone that’s listening doesn’t understand that. She buys whole pheasants that are frozen online and they’re sent to her and then she gives them to her cat to devour. She said that she started out with mice, and you start out with pinkies and then the different sizes on up and so I went to a local pet store here that sold the feeder mice for reptiles, but frozen. Although my cats would probably enjoy the live process, I wouldn’t have been able to handle it.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
No, no. That’s a step too far.

Jenny Dean:
But I did find in researching and calling people online because I said, “If this works, I’ll continue to do this,” and there was one lady, a guy said, that would buy mice and throw them in her food processor and that’s what she would feed her cats. I was like-

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Who?

Jenny Dean:
I wouldn’t be opposed to buying the processed mice, but for me to hit pulse on that food processor. Really tough.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Yeah. The problem with pheasants-

Jenny Dean:
Even if they’re dead.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Yeah, the problem with the pheasant, if it’s raised for food, for one thing, they’re usually grain fed. Their omega-3, omega-6 ratio is off. They’re bred to produce more meat than a wild pheasant. The bone to meat ratio is off. When they kill a pheasant, they hang it up by a seat and drain the blood and then they kill them. You’re still not quite getting it. It’s certainly better than a lot of options but still not perfect. That’s the issue. Now, I hope I don’t cause a run on pinkies across the country, but… I certainly would have-

Jenny Dean:
How do they kill them? Did they give them gas or something? Because that’s what I was wondering about that.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
I’m not sure. Probably is gas but I don’t know. I have wondered but I have never had the nerve to actually look into it. I can take a lot of things but not everything. But I would certainly have a dedicated food processor just for the cat.

Jenny Dean:
Yes. So then I wonder, if you’re feeding your cats even pinkies and they’re getting gas, then is that in the lungs of the mice that they’re eating and is that toxic? Just when does it end?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Probably, if it’s gas, probably not. I think the gas would just blow off because it’s a gas. I don’t think it would stay in the tissue. When a lion catches a zebra, they strangle it. You’re going to have the same buildup of carbon dioxide and all that kind of stuff. I think it’s probably similar. The other thing they may do, and I don’t know this for sure, but I know they do it in some cases is they freeze them. Freeze them and they just die. From all that I know, freezing to death probably one of the more pleasant ways to go. Maybe that’s all right. I don’t know.

I think our cats can do fine with a Frankenprey model. We just do the best we can. It can’t be good enough. Is it perfect? No. But it’s probably good enough. Your Stella & Chewy’s, your Primals, your frozen raws are going to be the next best thing. Although, I would like to point out that cooking does not significantly change the nutrition. It does the nature of the enzyme but you don’t lose that much in terms of nutrients. If you’re squeamish about raw, you can lightly cook meat and things like that and it’ll be okay. You could always add enzymes and probiotics.

冷凍生食餐會是一個很好的選擇,雖然烹煮並不會顯著的改變營養成分,但是會讓裡面的酵素失效,如果你心理上沒辦法給生食,你可以稍微煮過生餐,這是可以的,就再多加酵素以及益生菌進去就好。

Jenny Dean:
All right, next question. Richard asked, “Do some grains such as brown rice add to the cat’s digestive system?”

下個問題,像是糙米的某些穀類對貓的消化系統有益嗎?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Well, I’m not sure what that means, but they don’t. Carbohydrates don’t do anything for the cat, period. They don’t need carbohydrates. They don’t even need fiber technically. There are no fiber in a mouse other than maybe zillions of a teaspoon of grass in the digestive system of the mouse when he eats it. There’s a lot of downsides to carbohydrates for cats. Small amount isn’t going to hurt anybody. But they don’t have a need for it and they don’t add to the nutritional value.

不會。碳水化合物對貓來說沒有用,他們不需要碳水化合物,甚至纖維也不需要。碳水化合物對貓來說有很多壞處,他們不需要碳水化合物,對貓來說也沒有營養價值。

Jenny Dean:
Cynthia said, “I’m curious what she thinks of ingredients that are neither meat nor grain such as potatoes, blueberries or other fruits and vegetables. I’m generally aware that some are binders and others are added for nutrition, but would like to know if any of them should be avoided. Thank you.”

除了肉之外的成分像是穀類、馬鈴薯、藍莓或其他水果、植物呢?有些牌子會加這些去增加營養,我想知道是不是有哪些成分我該避免的?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
If you’re talking about things like carrots and spinach and blueberries and cranberries, those are in the food at a level so low that they make no difference to the cat. Those are in there to appeal to your eyeballs and they’re window dressing, as I’ve heard it put. I call them glamour ingredients. They’re just there for marketing purposes there. There’s not any nutritional reason for them to be there. Because they’re an amount so small that they’re not going to make any difference. There’s nothing that I would particularly avoid.

胡蘿蔔、波菜、藍莓和蔓越莓這些東西在寵糧中的含量極低,對貓來說完全沒有影響。我稱這些是用來吸引消費者的"魅惑成分"。這些是為了行銷而添加的成分,以營養來說沒有必要,而且含量極低根本不會有甚麼效用。所以這些我不會特別避免。

If you have a cat that had calcium oxalate crystals, maybe avoid the spinach and kale kind of things, but again the amounts are so tiny as to be insignificant in the long run.

你的貓如果有草酸鈣結晶,或許可以避免波菜和羽衣甘藍,但就像我剛說的,這些成分含量很低。

 

If you’re making food, then there’s a lot of things to watch out for. But, in a commercial food, no. No big deal.

Jenny Dean:
Do you have a resource where to go to if you’re making food? Is that covered in your book?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
It is and there’s a recipe on my website as well. I actually had it reviewed by a nutritionist. I don’t think he ran it through his program but it seemed okay. But it hasn’t been through the… There’s a $5,000 computer program that formulates pet food. I worked with a formulator, Greg Aldrich, who is awesome and he writes for pet food industry and he’s a brilliant guy.

I was in charge of pie in the sky. I would say, “Can we please have this that and the other thing in the food?” We came up with a formula. I say, “Can we up the omega-3 just a little bit?” And he changed one thing on the computer and it cascaded changes through 11 pages of spreadsheet. Nutrition is incredibly complicated and I don’t pretend to be good with it.

There was an article in the AVMA Journal and my recipe was critiqued for not being complete and balanced. So I tweaked what I thought was wrong with it. It’s as good as I can make it but I don’t have a $5,000 computer program.

A variety. Just use different things, different meats, different veggies, different everything. When we grew up, Jenny, our mom would make breakfast, lunch, and dinner and we didn’t eat the same thing every day but over time, we all grew up big and strong. Each meal does not have to be completed and balance as long as you’re balanced over time is adequate. I think if you’re feeding a variety and you’re getting your basic supplements…

當我們成長時,我們的媽媽會做早餐、午餐、晚餐,我們並不會每天都吃一樣的東西,我們也因此長的強壯。每一餐不需要是營養完整均衡的,只要長期來看是營養完整均衡的就好。我想如果你是餵多種不同的食物,就可以達到基本的營養需求了。

Now, meat is not a cat diet. I don’t care what Lilian Jackson Braun, she’s the Siamese cats in The Cat Who books. She’s wrong. Those cats would all be calcium deficient, vitamin D deficient, a lot of other problems. Meat is not a complete diet. You’ve got to balance calcium. You’ve got to balance taurine. You’ve got to balance the B vitamins. You got to balance… There’s 35 nutrients required in the AAFCO profile. If you look at the USDA tables, there’s over 100 nutrients in a food just any particular foods.

肉並不是貓的完整飲食,只給肉會有鈣缺乏、維生素D缺乏以及很多其他的問題。你必須均衡鈣、牛磺酸、維生素B...等35種AAFCO制定的營養成分。

You have to balance. You have to supplement. You can’t just feed. Except maybe pinkies. You may be able to feed pinkies as a complete and balanced diet, but otherwise, just use common sense.

Jenny Dean:
Yes. Okay. Tammy said, “I’ll be interested to hear what she says. I am in some of the DCM Facebook groups which she already mentioned and there have been some kitty cases. I switch to grain inclusive.”

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Probably doesn’t matter. If I was going to change from a grain-free food, I would change from kangaroo to turkey or some other higher taurine meet just to make sure, and I will make sure there’s not more than three or four plant ingredients in the top 10 ingredients. When you start with many, many, many plant substitutions that’s when you’re going to get into trouble. Grain or no grain if it’s corn, that’s a problem because of the genetically modified portion of the program but cats don’t eat carbs. Which carb you use really not so relevant.

不管有穀無穀,我會給火雞或是其他含有高牛磺酸含量的肉類,而且前10成分中的植物不多於3-4種。不管裡面的植物是不是穀類,因為貓並不需要碳水化合物,哪種植物是碳水化合物來源並不重要。

Jenny Dean:
Okay. That leads us to our next question. Judy said, “Could you please ask if peas or pea protein is any better than any other grain? Many pet food manufacturers use peas instead of grains and I’ve read it can be bad.” Can you also talk though about the difference between a green pea and chickpea? Because a lot of people are confused about that.

豌豆或豌豆蛋白會比其他的穀類好嗎?還有綠豌豆與鷹嘴豆的差異?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Chickpeas are also called garbanzo beans. They’re totally different. It’s like between peas and kidney beans. It’s just a different kind of legume but still legume. The reason that manufacturers started using the legumes is because they’re a little higher in protein. That reduced the cost of the food a little bit because they didn’t have to put quite so much meat protein in.

他們只是不同的豆類,寵物食品製造商之所以開始用豆類是因為他們的蛋白質含量稍稍高了一些,這樣可以少放一些肉而降低成本。

I just don’t believe that the presence of legumes or potatoes is the problem. The presence of carbs is the problem and the presence of low taurine meat and too many plant factors and pieces and parts, that’s the problem.

豆類和馬鈴薯本身並不是問題所在。碳水化合物才是。而使用低牛磺酸含量的肉類加上太多的植物就是問題。

Jenny Dean:
Okay. You’ve mentioned that kangaroo thing and I almost wonder if I answered the guy’s question incorrectly. This is why I want to ask it. “Can you please ask her if kangaroo meat is good as a main food? That’s the only thing my cat eats plus all day Royal Canin biscuits?” Was that person is either Australian or British. They made dry food.

袋鼠肉可以當作主食嗎?我的貓只吃袋鼠肉和皇家乾糧

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Yeah, I don’t recommend dry food. Tons and tons of problems from dry food. It’s dehydrating. It’s always high carb. See if your cat will eat the kangaroo if you add some taurine to it. You can get Jarrow taurine. You can buy it online. You can get 500 mg capsules, 1000 milligram capsules. Just make sure you get at least 125 mg of taurine into the food.

我不推薦乾糧,乾糧有太多太多問題。水分含量低、高碳水化合物。你可以試試在袋鼠肉內加入一些牛磺酸,至少125mg。

Taurine does not have much of a taste. It’s maybe a tiny bit salty, believe me, I have tried it. It’s fine. Just sprinkle that in the food just to abort any problems that may happen because it was the most commonly implicated food was the kangaroo.

牛磺酸沒有什麼味道,只有一點點鹹鹹的。撒一些在食物上,以避免像是袋鼠肉這種牛磺酸含量低肉類會造成的問題。

I actually asked Quinton Rogers years ago… He’s one of the guys at UC Davis that that actually discovered the taurine deficiency problem in the ’80s. He’s a good buddy. He lives close by now. He retired to Colorado. Good for him. But I asked him about kangaroo and he didn’t know. They hadn’t tested kangaroo at the time. But now we know it is one of the low taurine meats like lamb and beef and elk and moose and venison. The ruminant… Rabbit is also borderline low in taurine. All meat have some taurine but kangaroo, rabbit, and the ruminant seem to be the lowest.

所有肉類都含有牛磺酸,但是袋鼠、兔子和反芻動物的牛磺酸含量是最低的。

So supplement with taurine. It starts with the end of a toothpick, add that much. Your cat is not going to notice that and then you can work up to your 125 mg a day, but I would definitely add taurine to that food.

在食物中添加牛磺酸吧,從一個牙籤尖端的少量開始,然後慢慢加到一天125mg。

Jenny Dean:
Can you overdo the taurine? Can you give them too much?

牛磺酸會有給太多的問題嗎?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
No. It’s very safe. The studies that have been done has used huge amounts of taurine, no problem. The only thing is you might turn off your cat’s chase if you put in boatloads, but it’s so mild and it’s very, very safe.

不會,牛磺酸非常安全。有研究使用非常大量的牛磺酸也沒有出現問題。

Jenny Dean:
Okay, but if you were, I don’t know, lazy or you had someone else that was feeding your cat and didn’t know the drill and they just popped open a 500 mg pill in your cat’s food, that’s not going to cause a huge problem?

所以如果不小心用了500mg的牛磺酸膠囊也沒有關係嗎?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
No. If you’re on vacation for two or three weeks, it’s not going to cause a problem and I don’t think even after that it would cause a problem. It will hurt your pocketbook, is all.

不會,只會傷荷包而已。

Jenny Dean:
Okay. All right. Fair enough. That’s about it. The other questions or the other statements are more about there’s a gal that lost her dog to DCM congestive heart failure and she’s getting a cat and she’s worried about what to feed, but you’ve covered that. One of my questions after listening to everything that you’ve talked about is if I’m looking at a can of food and it says… I’m looking at Feline Natural which is made… I don’t know if it’s made in New Zealand but it’s a company from New Zealand. The guaranteed analysis has a minimum taurine of point 0.3%. Is that bad?

罐罐的標示上寫保證分析的牛磺酸最低含量是0.3%,這樣可以嗎?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
No, that’s fine. But the problem is that that turns out not to be enough for some cats.

這是可以的,但是有可能會對某些貓來說不足。

Jenny Dean:
How can a consumer-

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
All cat foods has to be supplemented with taurine and every manufacturer knows this. Apparently, excuse me, my sense of it is that some cats have a metabolic defect that makes them require even more training or perhaps their microbiome is just especially greedy and is chewing up more of the taurine that comes in the food. When in doubt, add a little bit of taurine. That’s 0.3 is above the minimum recommendation. So I say that’s fine. The caveat being every cat is an individual and you can’t tell nothing from nobody, for sure, for every single cat.

有些貓有代謝問題,或是他們體內的微生物群吃掉牛磺酸比其他貓多,這讓他們需要的牛磺酸量比較多。如果你會擔心的話,就多加一些牛磺酸在食物裡。

Jenny Dean:
Yes. Okay. No matter… You’ve said commercial diets are never going to cut it. But what is that minimum amount?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
They’re not ever going to be perfect.

Jenny Dean:
Right. If 0.3% is above the minimum amount, what is the minimum amount that a commercial pet food is supposed to have?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
I forget. I think it’s 2% in canned food, 0.5% in dry food, something like that. But in order for the percent to make any sense on the label, you have to do a whole lot of calculations. I would just think it’s safe to assume that a commercial cat food that contains taurine has at least the minimum amount. Because otherwise, they wouldn’t be selling it in the U.S. The FEDIAH, the European pet food guys, the equivalent of AAFCO in Europe, their taurine requirement is actually higher.

罐頭內的牛磺酸含量最低應該是2%,乾糧是0.5%。但是標示上的含量要很精密的計算才會知道正確與否。我想市售的寵物食品如果有遵照AAFCO或FEDIAH的標準,他們的牛磺酸含量應該是至少有達到最低含量需求。

There’s always been cats with a genetic problem that Maine Coon cats get dilated cardiomyopathy more than other cats. Is it related to taurine? We don’t know. Probably not. The thing is a lot of dogs and cats get dilated cardiomyopathy but most of them are not related to diet at all, it’s genetics.

擴張性心肌病跟基因也有關聯,像是緬因貓就比其他貓更容易得到。實際上跟牛磺酸到底有沒有關係,我們不知道。很多貓狗得到擴張性心肌病的原因並不是飲食,而是基因。

Even if your cat gets DCM, there’s a probably 60, 70% chance that it’s genetic and nothing to do with the food and that is true for 70% of dogs that get DCM, it has nothing to do with food. DCM is bad if you get it. It’s not fun. It’s very uncomfortable. You’d be very sick. You end up in the ER in the cardiac unit for a few days because that’s what happened to me. By the way, I was on the Atkins diet at the time. I was eating a ton of meat. So it had nothing to do with taurine in my case. It was a physical problem with the heart. Nothing to do with taurine.

貓得到擴張性心肌病有60-70%的機率是因為基因,而不是因為食物。在擴張性心肌病的狗中有70%就是如此。擴張性心肌病是個很不舒服的疾病,像是我自己就會常到急診室一待好幾天。那時候我正在實行Atkins飲食法,吃非常多的肉。所以以我來說,病因跟牛磺酸沒有關係。

For the vast majority of cats, my advice would be don’t sweat it. You’re probably going to be fine. Just get the best quality food you can. If you look at it and it’s got tons of ingredients that are not meat, I might look twice at that… For the most part, you’re going to be fine. The bottom line is don’t stress it. Just pay a little bit of attention and feed a variety and you’ll be fine.

對大多數的貓來說,你不用恐慌。只要給你能負擔的最高品質食物就好,如果你仔細的看標示發現很多成分都不是肉,那你買之前要再三思。基本上,你只需要多花點精力注意食品成分以及給貓多樣性高的不同食物就好,不用太擔心。

Jenny Dean:
Okay. I’m wanting to ask this question although it’s not really related. The difference between DCM and HCM. HCM is always genetic or not?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
They don’t know. They don’t know what causes it, There has to be a genetic component because it does run in a genetic fashion. But no, they don’t know what causes it. They don’t know how to fix it. It’s just a thing. It is not diet related as far as we know.

Jenny Dean:
Okay. All right, thanks. I was begging in my mind to ask that. Do you have anything else?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Then there’s something called restrictive cardiomyopathy that is DCM and it isn’t HCM. It’s a whole different thing. Heart disease is bad in cats It’s just bad but they mostly don’t know why. When they don’t know why, there’s probably a genetic component but can they pinpoint it? No.

Jenny Dean:
Okay. Oh, man. Well, as far as the grain-

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
As far as.

Jenny Dean:
This is refreshing and uplifting. As far as the grain-free stuff is concerned, is there anything that you wanted to touch on that we haven’t spoken about?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
I don’t think so. I think we’ve covered pretty much everything.

Jenny Dean:
Okay, I think so too. Thank you very much for your time. Okay, wait, there’s one girl that commented 20 minutes ago so I’ll read this one.

Binx is eating Instant Raw Boost grain-free, the issue that we’re having is that he’d rather eat his dry food than his wet food.” Yes, welcome to my world. “We have tried several varieties of wet canned food and he barely eats any of them. The only one he nibbles on is Weruva grain-free natural canned wet food. He won’t even eat plain shredded chicken. He loves the salmon flavor Whole Life cat treats. How do I incorporate more wet food in his diet? We’ve tried so many without success.” You don’t need to address that if you don’t want.

我的貓寧願吃乾糧也不碰濕食。我們試過各種不同的罐頭,但他幾乎不吃任何一種。其中只有一種罐頭他會吃一兩口,我應該怎麼讓他吃更多的濕食?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Take away the dry food. If I have kids and he comes home from school at 3:00 every day and eats a bag of pretzels and an apple and a few cookies and then you try and give them something interesting for dinner and he’s like, “I’m not eating that.” They have to be hungry. She’s in timed meals to start with. Just kick up your feet. You put the food down, you pick it up in an hour, period. No food until the next meal period, whatever that is.

拿掉乾糧。如果你的小孩放學回家就吃一包洋芋片、一顆蘋果和餅乾,然後你再想給他吃晚餐,他就會興趣缺缺。你必須讓他們有餓的感覺,從定時餵食開始,放下食物後,一小時內要收掉。而且到下一餐前都不能再給任何食物。

Cats need to be fed ideally, four or five times a day, not everybody can do that so three times a day, I’d say, a minimum. First thing in the morning, right after work or school and then before bed. And you leave the food out for 30 or 60 minutes and you pick it up so at the next meal, they’re hungry, and you put the wet food down first and then if he doesn’t eat it, you put the dry food down for a little while.

在理想的狀態下,貓一天要吃4-5餐,但不是所有人都做得到,最少一天3餐是可以的。早上一次,下班後一次,睡前再一次。食物放下後,等30-60分鐘就收掉,這樣他下一餐的時候就會有餓的感覺,然後你先放濕食,還是不吃的話再放乾糧。

You got to make the cat hungry because if he’s eating cookies all day, which is what drives it is I call it the Frito-Twinkie diet, if he’s gorging on Fritos and Twinkies all day, no, he’s not going to eat broccoli. It’s just tough love. Believe me. I’ve been through it. Like I said, my cat had raw food available for three years before she ate it and then of course, she loved it.

如果貓整天都在吃餅乾,就像小孩整天都在吃雞排,如果他整天都有雞排可以吃,他當然不會吃花椰菜。

Jenny Dean:
Oh, I’d be jumping from that rooftops if that happen for me. Also, you can get creative with it. I’ve heard about readers mixing maybe a tablespoon of dry or half a tablespoon of dry with the wet so that they smell the dry. Because isn’t that if… A cat’s appetite starts with their nose.

我聽過可以混一點乾糧到濕食裡面,這樣貓會聞到乾糧的味道而順便吃濕食。因為貓的食慾來自嗅覺。

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Absolutely. But I don’t encourage mixing wet and dry just because dry food is known to be covered in bacteria and if the bacteria get wet, they will start to grow. So then you really have to abide by the 30-minute timeline. You can’t leave it down for more than 30 minutes or the bacteria will grow and then they’ll puke and then they won’t eat anything and then you have a real problem. In my book and on my website both, there’s articles about switching foods and every trick I have ever heard of. Lisa Pierson’s site also has a chapter on switching and she’s got a lot of good tips. Some of mine I stole from her because we’re friends. All fair.

是的,但我不推薦混乾糧到濕食裡,因為乾糧上有很多細菌,而細菌遇到水分後就會開始大量生長。如果你這麼做,一定要嚴守30分鐘內收掉。如果你放太久,貓吃了會嘔吐,然後因此就不吃東西,那才是真正的大麻煩。

You just got to be sneakier than the cat and you got to… One thing with Perry even though he’s on the mirtazapine he’s still a little fussy. So I take the nature’s Instinct Boost little pellets of raw, and I crushed them up and I just sprinkle it on top of the food and he eats it. He’ll eat for a few minutes then he walks away then I put the stuff on it and then he’ll eat more.

你必須比貓還聰明,我會灑一點冷凍乾燥生食在食物上,這樣我的貓會吃掉一些,然後我再撒,他就會再吃。

But they have to be hungry. They have to be hungry. That’s the key to the cat’s heart and through his stomach.

但重點是他們必須要有餓的感覺,餓的感覺!要得到貓的心就從得到他的胃開始。

Jenny Dean:
I don’t remember who I first heard this thing from and it’s pretty common sense but it might have been Jackson Galaxy that I was watching. That cats have a pattern of plays/hunt, eat, groom, sleep. You’ve got to create the play or the hunt for them like play with a wand toy or whatever to get their appetite and their sense of… And then that will help your endeavor to-

我聽過傑克森說貓有個習慣是玩耍/打獵>>吃>>理毛>>睡覺,所以要先跟貓玩讓他們有打獵的感覺,這樣會讓他們更有食慾。

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Yeah, that’s a great way to do it. For those cats who have the 3:00 AM crazies, do that right before bed and then they’re tired and full and they’ll sleep only.

是的,這是個很好的方法。那些會在凌晨運動會的貓,就可以在睡前陪玩一波,玩累了他們就會乖乖睡覺了。

Jenny Dean:
That’s exactly what I tell people that write me about their kittens. “They won’t let me sleep at night.” What’s your pattern because I bet if you change it, then they’ll be sleeping when you’re sleeping. It works like a charm, so that’s awesome.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
There’s lot of ways to manipulate it. You just have to remember that cats hate change so you got to be slow and sneaky with pretty much everything. But if you go to a meal schedule, they’re going to figure that out pretty fast and then people get paranoid. “Oh, well, I suppose I have to work late. I’m not home for 10 or 12 hours. He’s going to starve.” No, he’s not. Starve to death.

貓這種生物非常討厭改變。大多數的時候你都要非常小心緩慢的改變他的行為,但是定時餵食這件事他們很快就會理解。不過在定時制下,就算你偶爾會晚回家,也不用太擔心,他們不會因為晚點吃就餓死。

Lions will go for a week or two without eating. The cat’s digestive system is set up for an eat-fast-eat cycle. That’s what they’re designed for. In the wild, they’ll catch the mouse, eat it, catch another mouse, eat it, and then take a nap. Then maybe they’ll catch three birds in a row or three. They’re not designed to be on a perfect schedule or have the same thing all the time. I’ve never seen a cat come in and say, “Well, I will only eat purple finches. Chicken, beef, forget about it.” Only field mice not harvest mice and not voles. That would be evolutionary stupid.

貓在自然環境下,他會抓到老鼠後,吃掉,抓到另一隻,吃掉,然後睡個午覺。然後可能一次抓到三隻鳥來吃。大自然設計他們的消化系統時就不是要遵照完美的用餐時間,也不會一直吃一樣的東西。

If you work with the cat’s nature and try to think, “If I was a cat in the wild…” Go watch a nature’s something about mountain lions. They’ll catch a deer and they’ll eat it for two weeks before they’ll go catch something else. They’re less fussy than you think but they are as fussy as you have let them be.

像是山獅,他們可能會獵到一隻鹿後,吃完兩個禮拜後才抓下一個獵物,他們不會那麼挑剔獵物是什麼,貓是因為飼主才變得挑剔。

Jenny Dean:
That actually is a great idea to go watch a nature program about a big cat. That is what helped me understand how pulling meat off of a bone would help clean their teeth.

我就是看類似這樣的自然紀錄片發現貓可以藉由從骨頭上將肉撕裂下來時清理牙齒。

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Yeah, because they just grind away at it. There was a veterinary dentists who did a lot of big cats in zoos and he called it the hassle factor. He said cats need more hassle factor which is the ligaments, the tendons, and the bones and the things that they have to chew and work on and exercise their jaw muscles. That also consequently helps clean their teeth because those things get down in between the teeth. The problem with all the tartar control and the stuff you put in water, none of it gets under the gum line and under the gum line is where its problems are.

有個動物園的獸醫說這叫做"麻煩因素"。他說貓喜歡這些麻煩的東西,他們喜歡咬像是韌帶、肌腱和骨頭,一邊還可以運動嘴巴的肌肉。這一方面也幫助他們清理牙齒,至於減少牙垢的那些輔助品就放在水裡給他們喝就好。動物園獸醫通常不需要處理牙齦以上的問題,在牙齦下發生的病症才是他們的工作。

You can have bright shiny white teeth and horrendously infected under the gum periodontal ligament and stuff like that. Chewing is good.

It’s all in my book really. I put everything I know. There’s a lot of stuff… I keep revising it because I learned a new thing like three days ago that I had to put in the book. It’s a constantly evolving thing and it’s worth doing the research and figuring it out and as much as I fit on my website, I put there and there is an article about the taurine I need to update it a little bit. But there’s a lot of information out there.

Not everybody is reputable and one thing I find is that the board certified nutritionists are the most clueless because they’re the ones that say, “Ingredients don’t matter. Only nutrients matter.” If I created complete and balanced ice cream and said, “I’m just going to eat that for the rest of my life. What do you think my health would look like?”

我發現有證照的那些營養師才是最搞不清楚的,他們會說「原料不重要,看營養成分就好」。但如果我做了一種營養完整均衡的冰淇淋,然後一輩子只吃那個,你覺得我會健康嗎?

Mentally, I’d be thrilled. But I would be terribly malnourished and weighs 600 pounds. Because you can’t play with nutrients like that. You have to assure the nutrients but the form the nutrients come in whether it’s good quality meat or crap quality intestines, it makes a difference. By the way there is no taurine in byproducts. Keep that in mind. Yeah, it’s in meat. Muscle meat, heart. That’s where the taurine is. But when they bleed the animal, not a lot of taurine is left. That’s probably why they have to stick more in.

這會滿足我的心理,但是我可能會變成300公斤重。因為營養成分不是這樣搞的,營養成分很重要,但是營養來源是品質很好的肉還是糟糕的腸子之類的也會有所區別。對了,副產品中不含有牛磺酸。牛磺酸存在於肉和心臟,但是當動物被放血時,很多牛磺酸會流失掉,這就是為什麼他們要另外添加牛磺酸。

Jenny Dean:
Do you have a particular source where you like to buy your taurine?

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
I get Jarrow, J-A-R-R-O-W. I get my vitamins from vitacost.com. It’s way cheaper than anybody else I’ve found.

Jenny Dean:
Yes, that’s where I like to go shopping too.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
In a pinch, you can go to Whole Foods and get it but next time plan ahead and get your restock from somewhere cheaper because they’re going to charge you an arm and leg. But an arm and leg is certainly worth preventing heart disease in your cat, so there you go.

Jenny Dean:
Yes, it is. Okay. I’m going to go buy some taurine for cats after this conversation. Thank you very much for taking the time to talk about grain free and taurine with us. I appreciate it.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
No problem. Glad to do it.

Jenny Dean:
All right, and hopefully we can get another interview out of you soon. I need to be a little more consistent in reaching out so I will do my best with that.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Well, I don’t go anywhere anymore so no problem.

Jenny Dean:
Okay, I will do that. Thank you again, Dr. Jean. I appreciate it.

Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM:
Yeah, take care, Jenny.

 

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