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貓的肥胖問題

Obesity in Cats with Dr. Jean Hofve, DVM

by JENNY on MARCH 15, 2012

De. Jean Hofve介紹: 為美國獸醫師, 貓咪營養及醫藥專家. 任多間動物營養公司的顧問.

謝謝Dr. Jean肯花時間和我談談貓咪的肥胖問題.

你可以藉由閱讀Dr. Jean的書-- The Complete Guide to Holistic Cat Care: An Illustrated Handbook來學到更多.

你可以聽我們之間的錄音或是閱讀以下的訪問內容.

Thank you to Dr. Jean for taking the time to talk to me about obesity in cats.

You can learn more about cat health by reading Dr. Jean’s book, The Complete Guide to Holistic Cat Care: An Illustrated Handbook.

You can listen to the Obesity in Cats with Jean Hofve recording (click here) or you can read the interview below.

Jenny: 有哪些因素會造成貓咪的肥胖問題?

What are some of the causes of obesity in cats?

Jean Hofve: 嗯, 最主要的原因是乾乾的任食. 其他的原因則比較少見.

Well, the main cause of obesity in cats is free feeding of dry food. It’s pretty rare for a cat to get truly obese with anything else.

Jenny: 是阿. 結紮跟去勢有可能會造成嗎?

Yeah. Can neutering and spaying contribute to it?

Jean Hofve: 不, 主要的問題是人們不了解熱量. 問題是人們沒有接受教育,了解如何正確的餵食. 餵貓的最好方式是少量多餐, 一天2~4餐, 依照你每天的行程而定. 不要把食物隨時都放在外面. 不要依照標示上的餵食建議, 因為它們會誤導你. 熱量需求因貓而異, 會因年齡,每天情況及生活型態而不同. 例如, 如果今天家裡的飛蛾比較多,貓咪運動的時間可能較長. 我們不會每天都吃一模一樣的東西, 對寵物也一樣. 我們必須用一些常識, 且說 "嗯, 你知道的, 我們今天活動的比較多" 或是外面有暴風雪, 沒什麼動到. 所以, 我每天觀察貓咪, 他們每天吃的食物不同,量也不同. 所以, 最好的餵食方式是擺出食物30~45分鐘,然後就收起. 讓貓咪決定他要在那段期間吃多少食物. 當你定下了每天的餵食行程, 就要遵守那個行程, 你的貓咪會知道他們應該要在那個時間吃足夠的食物, 否則就要等到下一次餵食了.

No, they can…but the problem is, people don’t understand how calories work. We don’t understand it in people.  The problem is that people are not educated on how to correctly feed. The way to feed a cat is really to feed in small meals, two, three, four times a day, whatever your schedule allows. Don’t leave food out all the time. Don’t follow the directions on the label because they will mislead you. Caloric needs are so individual and they depend on the day and the time of day and the lifestyle.  For example, if there were more moths in the house today so that your cat got more exercise. We don’t eat the same exact thing or amount every single day and it doesn’t make sense for a pet either. We have to use some common sense and say, “well, you know yeah, we were really active today” or there was a blizzard and nobody moved. So, what I find with my cats is that they’ll eat different amounts different days. So, the best way to feed them is to put the food out and leave it out for half an hour or 45 minutes and then pick it up. Allow the cat to decide how much he eats in that period of time. Once you’re on a meal feeding schedule, time to meal feeding schedule, your cats will understand that they need to eat as much as they require in that time or they are not going to have another chance for awhile.

大部分的貓咪會自我調節進食時間. 但是那不是完美的,你最好不要讓肥胖問題接近你. 另外一件事是, 乾乾中大量的碳水化合物. 所以, 如果你在餵乾乾, 你可能會面臨貓咪的體重增加問題. 結紮及去勢會影響貓咪的代謝率. 代謝率會下降. 所以,我的建議是,在經過結紮或去勢的手術後, 減少25~30%的餵食量且至少持續幾周, 直到貓咪可以重新適應較低的代謝率.

Most cats will do a pretty good job with self regulating on that schedule. Not necessarily perfect, but you are not going to have nearly the problems that you could. The other thing is the high carbohydrate load of the dry diet. So, if you are feeding dry food, you are probably going to have a problem with weight gain in a cat. Now, spaying and neutering do affect the cat’s metabolic rate. The whole metabolic rate actually slows down and it slows down the minute those organs are removed. So, what I recommend doing after spaying or neutering surgery, is to cut the amount you are feeding by 25 or 30% and keep it low-that low for a couple of weeks, until the cat has a chance to re-regulate at that lower metabolic rate.

他們不需要這麼多熱量. 未結紮的貓咪是需要這麼多熱量. 他們比較活潑, 肌肉較常活動, 結紮及去勢對他們來說是必需的, 但這對貓咪來說並不是件自然會發生的事情. 沒有被結紮或去勢的貓咪會比較有活動力. 當然, 有部分的活動力是用來嚎叫, 對沙發噴尿及一些你不希望他們做的事情. 而這也對控制數量及預防未來可能發生的疾病很重要, 但這是會影響他們對熱量的需求, 而你必須馬上調整他們的熱量攝取. 而且我建議你在結紮及去勢時將幼貓食物換成成貓食物, 因為那表示他們登大人了.

They just don’t need as many calories. Being intact for cat, they need a lot of calories. They are more active, they have more muscle tone, so, you know, spaying and neutering are important and they are necessary, but they are not the most natural thing for the cat. A cat that’s not spayed or neutered is going to be more active. Of course, a part of that activity is going to be howling and spraying the sofa and doing things that you don’t necessarily want them to be doing.  And it is really important for overpopulation and for future disease prevention, but it does make a difference in their caloric needs and so you need to adjust their calories immediately.  Also I recommend that you go from a kitten food to an adult food at the time of spaying and neutering, because that’s really what that’s about.

幼貓食物含有很高的熱量.

Kitten food is pretty high in calories.

Jenny: 是的, 還有很高的脂肪, 對嗎?

Yes, and fat, right?

Jean Hofve: 是, 脂肪也是, 因為幼貓需要高量的脂肪, 但當你幫他們結紮後, 就算還年輕, 他們也不再有相同的需求. 你不想要限制幼貓, 年輕的幼貓可以盡量吃, 所以你要盡量給他們充足的食物, 但我仍然建議訂定餵食行程. 如果你按照行程餵食, 會有很多的好處. 你永遠得到他們的尊重,而他們不會一直在其他時間對你哭夭, 就算貓咪非常喜歡這麼做.

暗示貓咪吃飯時間到了可以用腳踏踏地板, 或是沖澡聲結束, 咖啡機停止運轉, 而不是你起床的聲音, 因為這樣他們就會想盡辦法把你叫醒.

如果他們習慣了餵食的行程, 這對大家都有好處. 如果你是多貓家庭, 你可以看誰在吃飯時間出現而知道誰在吃,誰沒有. 你可以在問題發生前就發現徵兆, 防止貓咪吃太多而肥胖.

Yeah, and fat because kittens have a very high need for fat, but when you neuter them, even young, they don’t have the same needs. You don’t want to restrict a kitten, a young kitten in what it eats, so you do want to give them as much as they want, but I still recommend to give it to them on a schedule. You know if you’re feeding on a schedule, there is a host of benefits to that. You know, that you always have the expectation and they are not bugging you at different times even though that’s what cats love.

The cue for feeding the cat can be your feet hit the floor, let the cue for the cat is going to be fed hearing the shower go off or hearing the coffee machine stop dripping or some other cue, not you getting out of bed because then they’ll get you up.

If they have a reliable schedule, it’s beneficial for everyone. Then you know if you have multiple cats, you know who’s eating and who’s not because you know who is showing up. You can catch problems a lot earlier that way and you are not going to run into the problem of overeating and obesity.

Jenny: 好的. 所以有什麼品種比較容易胖的嗎? 我是說, 品種會是一個影響的因素嗎?

Okay. So, are there certain breeds that are more prone to obesity at all, I mean, will that ever be a factor?

Jean Hofve: 這是有可能的, 因為有些品種就是比其他的更懶惰一些. 大貓, 像是緬因貓及布偶貓, 他們會比較不活潑. 任何的貓咪, 如果他們在野外的話, 他們必須要比較活潑不然就沒得吃. 緬因貓其實是很好的狩獵者, 你可以用像釣魚竿的玩具跟他玩狩獵遊戲, 他們會很高興進行這項運動.

就算是波斯貓, 也會很高興能運動一下. 這很有趣, 因為我不太常見到過重的波斯貓, 他們不是那麼愛吃的小傢伙. 這和他們被扶養長大的方式(幼貓時吃的東西)及貓咪自身的個性有關. 如果你在幼貓的時候就給他們吃很多不同種的食物, 那他們長大後就不太會挑嘴. 多樣性是很重要的.

It can be because some breeds are just a little more lazy than other breeds. Bigger cats, the Maine Coons and the Ragdolls, they tend to be a little less active, but they don’t have to be. Any cat, if it were out in the wild would be necessarily active or it wouldn’t eat. Maine coons are really good hunters and you can play hunting games with them with fishing pole like toys and they’ll be happy to get the exercise.

Even if a Persian cat is going to be happy to get exercise given the chance. It’s funny because I don’t see that many overweight Persians, but they don’t tend to be that big of eaters either, but it just depends on the cat and how it was raised, what it ate as a kitten. So many of their food preferences are formed very young and so it’s really important when you get a kitten to expose them to a wide variety of foods so that they are willing to eat anything you give them.  Variety is so important.

Jenny: 是的. 我同意讓他們接觸任何的可能性.

Right. I agree to expose them to everything.

Jean Hofve: 是阿. 有一個我工作的同事曾打電話問我, 因為她不知道該問誰. 她像是抓住最後一根救命稻草似的. 她的貓咪很喜歡偉嘉的海洋白魚, 但是只吃特定工廠出來的, 如果是別的工廠出來的他完全不吃. 問題是偉嘉準備要關閉那間工廠, 她手邊剩下141罐而這是她打遍全國的電話而拿到的, 但是如果她不能讓貓咪吃其他的東西, 當罐罐吃完的時候, 就是貓咪餓死之時. 如果他不吃東西, 他就會死掉, 這就是不提供食物多樣性的危險. 他們會變得很挑嘴, 對某種食物上癮, 如果他們對那個食物起了反應, 像是對魚的過敏反應, 那才是真正的問題. 所以, 多樣性, 多樣性. 試著讓他們吃所有不同的東西. 人的食物, 寵物食物. 你不能讓他們變的這麼挑剔. 他們可能只吃一種東西.

Yeah. I had a lady who called when I worked for the Animal Protection Institute and she just didn’t know who else to call. She was grasping at straws. Her cat liked Friskies Ocean White Fish, but not just only that but only if it was canned in a certain canning facility which you could tell from the code on the can. It wouldn’t eat it if it came from a different cannery.  And the problem was that Friskies was closing that cannery and she had 141 cans left and she had called all over the country, she had gotten every one she wanted, but if she couldn’t get that cat to eat something else, when she ran out of those cans, he was going to die, to starve to death. It was–you know, if he wasn’t going to eat, he was going to die and that is the danger of not providing variety. They get finicky. They get addicted and then if they start reacting to that food, if that cat had become allergic to fish, she would have been in real trouble. So, variety, variety. You know, try and get them to eat all kind of different things.  People food, pet food. You know, you want them to not be that fussy. They’ll only eat one thing.

Jenny: 嗯. 我想專注於肥胖的問題, 但是我也想談談食物的問題.我知道這兩者之間是有相關的, 我想開始問一些怎麼讓成貓適應不同的食物.. 但我們可以在食物相關的談話時問到這些問題.

Hmm. It makes it…you know I’m trying to stay on the topic of obesity, but it makes me want to talk about food too. I know that it’s connected and I want to start asking you questions about how do you get an adult cat that’s not used to it to…but we can cover that in a food conversation.

Jean Hofve: 是阿, 因為轉換食物的問題可以聊上一個小時呢, 因為這並不容易.

Yeah, because the whole topic of switching food, we can do an hour on that because it’s not easy.

Jenny: 是阿, 我嘗試了乾乾的轉換, 很辛苦, 但是值得.

Yeah. I did the whole dry food switch. Yuck, but worth it.

Jean Hofve: 當然的.

Absolutely.

Jenny: 你提到熱量及肥胖. 我們並不是完全了解人類的熱量問題. 你知道貓咪一天應該要攝取多少熱量嗎?

You mentioned calories and obesity before. We don’t really understand it in humans. Do you know if there is a daily intake suggested amount for calories for a cat?

Jean Hofve: 嗯, 是有這個建議量. 你可以把數字帶入一個公式. 一般成貓需要的熱量約200~300卡/天, 但是這會因貓而異. 你要做的不只是試圖讓他們達到這個攝取量, 而是, 如果你分好幾餐餵食, 你的貓咪會告訴你他需要多少. 這邊最近很冷, 所以我的貓咪每天會吃兩大餐, 而他們會持續這樣好幾周直到某天早上我餵他們的時候他們不去碰食物.

Um, there is. There is a formula that you can put numbers in. Your average cat is going to be a couple, two or three hundred calories a day, but, you know it’s so individual.  Really what you want to do is not just say this many calories a day, but, if you’re feeding in meals, your cat is really going to tell you how much it needs.  It’s been really cold here, so my cats have been eating big meals twice a day and they’ll do that for a couple of weeks and then I’ll feed them in the morning and they won’t touch it.

這表示他們攝取了足夠的熱量, 所以他們會有一陣子不吃那麼多, 這跟天氣及他們的活動程度有關, 你知道的, 如果有很多小鳥在外面的樹叢裡, 那他們就會整天從這個窗戶跑到另一個窗戶或是我們如果有多餘的時間跟他們玩,而我們玩得很盡興. 他們燃燒了較多的熱量, 他們就會比較餓. 有時候會有暴風雪, 大概會有17~18吋的積雪, 我跟貓咪們都不太會動. 我會坐在椅子上, 而四隻貓咪壓在我身上, 這會持續好幾天. 沒有人會動, 因為天氣實在冷的要命,我們必須要一直疊在一起.

So, it’s like they get caught up in their caloric needs and then they don’t eat as much for awhile and it depends on the weather and it depends on the activity levels, you know, if there are a lot of birds in the bushes outside and they are running from window to window all day or we have extra time to play and we really have some good play session. They burn more calories that way and then they’ll be hungrier. We had a pretty good snow storm. We had about 17-18 inches of snow and I wasn’t moving and they weren’t moving. I was in the chair, I had four cats on me and that’s how it was for a couple of days. You know, nobody moved a muscle because it was freezing if we weren’t all piled up together.

所以, 這真的是非常因貓而異的事情, 而且我想人們應該要了解這是一連串的事件, 你要做的是確定他們吃了足夠的食物及運動, 如果他們沒有體重變化, 皮毛看起來不錯, 活動力也很好, 有很好的食欲, 那他們是在享受食物且結果是很好的. 不是說你把食物放出來, 然後就一走了之. 每天都要觀察他們的需要, 就像對待小孩一樣. 我們不知道他們想做些甚麼, 或許他們在睡覺, 又或許不是.

So, it’s a very individual thing and it varies and I think people would be better off understanding that this is a fluid thing and what you want to do is monitor and make sure that they are getting enough food and they are getting enough exercise over time and they are not gaining or losing weight, that their coat looks good and their energy levels are good, that they have a good appetite, that they are enjoying their food and that things are coming out the other end correctly. It’s not, it’s not like you dish it out and then you walk away and forget it. You are monitoring their needs every day and it’s like with children. They are our kids and  maybe Johnny is really, really hungry after school today because he really ran around like crazy at recess. Especially when we’re at work all day. We don’t know what they’re up to; maybe they’re sleeping and maybe they’re not, you know.

比較年輕的貓咪喜歡自己找事做. 你要注意他們做了哪些事, 並以此估計每天的餵食量. 你可以有一個基本餵食量, 當他們在吃完的15分鐘內又回來討食及舔盤子這可能就表示他們需要更多的熱量, 而你可以因此給他們多一些. 如果他們只吃一半, 下一餐你就給他們少一點的食物直到他們又來討食. 我不喜歡人們說 "我每天就給他這樣的熱量阿, 我還做了這個跟那個..." 他們是貓, 這不是一個盒子, 你丟了什麼東西進去, 而這個東西永遠不會改變. 這是一個生物, 有感覺的動物, 他需要依時間做更動.

Younger cats tend to find things to occupy themselves. You know, you want to just pay attention to what’s happening and-and learn to gauge it kind of day to day. You can have a basic amount that you feed but if they are coming back to you in 15 minutes and they are scouring the plate and there is nothing left. Well, yeah, maybe that’s the day that they did need more calories and you can go ahead and give them a little more food. If they only eat half of it, then the next meal you give them less food until you get caught up again, until they are ready to eat more. It’s a fluid thing. I don’t like it when people say, “Well, you give them this many calories a day and you do this and you do that.” You know, they are cats. This is not a box. It’s not something you can set your dials and that will never change. It’s a living, feeling animal and it’s needs will change over time.

Jenny: 我母親養的布偶貓不太喜歡動, 3~4個月前,Caymus正在進行乾濕食的轉換, 最後他終於達到獸醫認定的標準體重, 但他常常覺得餓, 所以我的母親將食物分成很多餐餵食, 我常在他們餓的時候過去, 我能這麼做是因為我一直都在家.

Yeah. That’s good to hear because my mom’s Caymus he’s not much of a mover, but often times, the Caymus was on a wet, dry diet and was moved to all wet food about three or four months ago. He finally is at what the vet considers his ideal weight, but he’s often hungry and my mom does have very, very regiment feeding times, whereas I just go by when the cats are hungry and I have the ability to do that because I’m at home.

Jean Hofve: 是阿, 我也做同樣的事情. 有很長的一段時間, 我每天只餵他們一餐, 因為他們只需要吃這個量, 而且他們比較喜歡在晚上吃飯, 所以我就在傍晚的時候餵他們, 他們的狀況很好. 直到隔天的凌晨3~5點都不會再來討食, 突然有一天早上, 他們早上六點就來討食, 在我的腳邊走來走去, 所以我說 "好吧, 所以你今天想吃早餐?" 我給他們早餐且他們吃光光. 所以他們的餵食行程是每天要吃兩餐, 而且吃得很多, 他們沒有增加或減少體重. 他們把我給的食物都吃光光, 而且直到下次的餵食時間之前都不會來吵我. 如果你必須出門工作, 我建議你在下班回家後馬上餵食, 另一個時間是睡覺前. 你出門的時候可以放一些食物給他們, 這可能會有一些些浪費, 但是你可以試試看.

Yeah, I do the same thing. You know, for a long time I was feeding them just one meal a day because that was all they were eating and they would prefer to eat at night, so I would feed them in the evening and they would be fine. They wouldn’t even be interested until 3:00, 4:00, 5:00 the next day and then all of a sudden one morning, they were bugging me at 6 in the morning. They were moving around my feet. So, I said, “Okay, so you want breakfast today?” I gave them breakfast and they snarfed it down. So, right now that is the schedule that they’re on, they are eating a lot and they are eating twice a day and they’re not gaining weight and they are not losing weight. They are eating what they are given and then they don’t bug me until the next time they’re hungry. When you work and you’re not home and able to move, I would feed in the morning and as soon as you come home from work and at bed time. You know, you are going to waste a little food feeding when you’re gone but, you can just give them a little more than you think they are going to eat and see how that goes.

而且如果你看到有很多食物剩下, 你要把它收起來. 他們就會學到他們只有這個機會能吃, 如果機會過去了, 就是過去了, 而他們必須習慣這點.

And if you see a lot left over, you pick it up. They are going to learn about that. They are going to learn that they only have a limited opportunity and, when it’s gone, it’s gone and they’ll adjust to that.

他們每天餓的時間不一樣. 我每天吃東西的時間也不一樣. 我不是每天都在同樣的時間肚子餓. 也不會每天都吃一樣的食物. 我是說, 很多人都被寵物食品公司洗腦了. 我們會告訴你如何餵貓及我們有多少和營養相關的疾病就是跟你餵食方法有關.

They’re hungry at different times every day. I don’t eat at the same time every day. I’m not hungry at the same time every day.  I don’t eat the exact same food every day. I mean, what I just hate about pets and feeding pets and talking about it is that we’ve been so brain washed by the pet food companies. You are too stupid to feed a cat. Come to us and we’ll tell you how to feed a cat. Well, yeah, then how come we have so many nutritional related diseases if you are so darn smart.

肥胖很常見, 超過50%的貓咪都過重, 而且很多都是非常過重的肥胖, 這會把他們搞壞. 有很多的膀胱及腎臟疾病都是因食物而起. 有很多過敏也是. 為什麼我們要突然擯棄這些常識且說 "喔, 寵物食品公司他們比較了解' 還有 "天阿, 他們說每天餵1杯半的食物?" 1杯半的食物可能足夠支持50磅的貓咪. 所以, 如果你只有一隻貓, 他會變得很巨大..


Obesity is rampant, over 50% of cats are overweight and way too many of those are obese, which is extreme overweightness and we screwed them up. We have all kinds of bladder and kidney problems because of the food. We have allergies because of the food. Why did we suddenly abandon our common sense and say, “Oh, the pet food companies know,” and “Gosh, they say to feed a cup and a half of this food every day?” Well a cup and a half of cat food is probably enough to support about 50 pounds of cat. So, if you only have one cat, it is going to be big.


Jennifer: 我們去獸醫診所時, 他們鳥瞰貓咪的背部就告訴你貓咪有多胖或是怎樣是正常的, 怎樣是瘦, 怎樣是過胖. 怎麼能夠不比較照片就知道情況?

You know when you go to the vet’s office, they’ve got the bird’s eye view of the back of a cat to show you how fat they are or what’s normal, what’s skinny, what’s obese. How can you tell without comparing photos?

Jean Hofve: 嗯, 這是個很好的問題. 因為不是所有的貓咪瘦就是最理想的體型.

Well, that’s a good question because, you know, because not every cat is the ideal shape even when they are thin.

但是你應該要能容易的就摸到他們的肋骨. 我可以摸到Puzzle的脊椎, 但那不是突出來的. 在她的骨頭上有肉. 她有一點肚肚但是有腰身. 當你將小貓結紮後, 就算是最年輕的貓咪, 他們的胃部會變小, 因為你切除了一些肌肉,所以胃就變小了. 這很好玩. 貓咪都會有這個垂肚肚, 就算瘦貓也有, 因為那是貓咪的儲存倉庫. 當貓咪飢餓時那是他們最後可利用的脂肪. 所以, 只要他們還有腰身, 我不會對那搖來晃去的垂肚肚太過激動, 當你摸他們的肋骨時, 你不用太過用力, 肋骨上只有一層皮膚, 所以應該要很簡單就摸到. 他們不需要有六塊腹肌, 但重要的是, 大多數人覺得的理想體型有點太過了, 貓狗應該要稍稍瘦一點以有較長的壽命.

他們應該保持有一點點的飢餓. 因為那是他們最自然的狀態.

But you should be able to feel their ribs easily. I’m feeling Puzzle, because she’s right here and, you know, I can feel her spine but it doesn’t stick out. She’s got meat on her bones. She’s got a little bit of a tummy, but she has a waist. I noticed this when I was first in practice, when you spay a kitten, even the youngest kitten, their stomach droops because you cut those muscles and they droop like instantly. It’s really funny. Cats do have that abdominal fat pad and even a thin cat will have that because that is the cat’s storage bin. It’s the last resort. So, a cat that’s starving, that is the last reserve of fat and they will preserve that until the bitter end. So, I don’t get too excited if they have that little waddle swinging back and forth as long as they have kind of a waist and, when you feel their ribs you don’t have to push down real hard and it’s like “Oh, yeah, yeah I feel a rib. Yeah.” I mean really. The skin should slip across the ribs and they should be easily palpable without pressing too hard. You know, they don’t need to have a washboard or six pack or anything like that, but one thing that is important to know though is that the shape that most people would probably consider ideal is a little bit too much. Cats and dogs should be a little bit on the thin side from maximum longevity.

They should be a little hungry.  Because, you know, that’s their natural state.

Jenny: 是的. 這很有道理. 我有一個獸醫跟我說, 只要你的貓咪可以自己清理屁屁, 他就不算太胖.

Right. That makes sense. Well, I had a vet tell me one time that as long as your cat can clean his bottom with his tongue, then he’s not too fat.

Jean Hofve: 真的嗎?

Seriously?

Jenny: 是.

Yes.

Jean Hofve: 嗯, 只要他們能清理自己的屁屁, 他們就完全不會太胖.

Well, once you get to the point that you have to clean their bottom, you have gotten way past too fat.

Jenny: 是.

Yes.

Jean Hofve: 這是我聽過最荒謬的事了.

That’s, that’s one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard.

Jenny: 我知道. 但這個很好笑, 所以有哪些徵兆可以讓我們知道貓咪是不是過胖?
I know. It makes me laugh still. So, what are some of the things that you can do if you have an obese cat?

Jean Hofve: 嗯, 讓我們回想先前說過的, 這不只跟熱量有關. 獸醫營養學是一個非常奇怪的學問, 而且他們說原料並不重要, 只有營養成分重要, 而熱量的形式也不重要, 只有熱量多寡重要. 如果那是真的, 那這個國家不會有體重的問題, 不只是熱量進出那麼簡單. 每個個體的差異性不同, 像是代謝率, 你的活動程度, 品種, 種類. 原料是重要的, 因為如果你要餵一隻大尺寸貓咪, 他一天需要大約250卡, 如果250卡都餵素食, 高碳水化合物的乾乾, 這跟250卡都餵肉跟脂肪的結果是不同的.

Well, let me go back and pick up on something we touched on earlier is that it’s not just a matter of calories. Veterinary nutritionists is a very strange breed apart and they say ingredients don’t matter, only nutrients matter and the form of calories don’t matter, only the calories matter. Well, if that was true, this country wouldn’t have the weight problem that it has in multiple species, starting with people and going on down from there. It isn’t as simple as calories in and calories out. There is individual variation on, you know: What’s your metabolic rate? How active are you? What breed are you? What species? Ingredients do matter because, if you are going to feed your cat…say you figured out….you’ve got a pretty good sized cat and it needs to get around 250 calories a day, let’s just make up something. If you feed 250 calories a day as a vegetarian, high carb kibble, you are going to get a different result than if you feed both 250 calories of free meat and fat.

現在糖尿貓會被要求吃幼貓食品, 因為他們需要高蛋白質, 高脂肪及高水分含量. 所以, 你第一個要做的事就是讓他們戒掉乾乾, 減少零食. 想想貓咪應該要吃些什麼, 像是老鼠, 兔子跟小鳥之類的. 我們比較想要的是罐裝老鼠, 這是普瑞納一開始想做的, 因為他們知道那是貓咪比較想吃的, 含有55%蛋白質, 約30%脂肪及低於10%的碳水化合物. 這是理想的貓食, 而且它含有約70%水分. 所以我們必須多思考熱量的來源及貓咪是如何代謝它們. 高果糖的玉米糖漿廣告都會說 "你的身體分辨不出果糖及葡萄糖的差別, 它們代謝的方式一樣." 那完全是說謊, 科學上的證據是: 你的身體一定知道果糖跟葡萄糖的差別, 而且代謝的方式完全不同. 它們代謝的途徑不同. 結果也不一樣, 所以原料是重要的而且有時候你不能只是給他們250卡的熱量而不注意這些熱量的來源, 因為你的貓咪代謝肉跟代謝餅乾的途徑不同.

Diabetic cats are put on canned kitten food now because they need high protein, they need high fat, they need high moisture. So, the first thing to do is get them off the dry food, watch the treats. Think about what a cat ought to be eating, which is mice, you know, rabbits and birds and things like that. What we want really is rat in a can because that is actually how Purina first referred to it because they knew that that’s what cats prefer to eat is something that’s like a rat that’s got about 55% protein, about 30% fat…30 or 40% fat and about 10% or less carbohydrates. That’s the ideal cat diet and it’s about 70% moisture. So, we need to think more about the form of calories and how the cat is metabolizing them. You know those stupid high-fructose corn syrup commercials that are promoting, you know, “Your body can’t tell the difference between fructose and glucose, it metabolizes both the same.” Well, that is a total lie. The scientific fact is: your body absolutely knows the difference between fructose and glucose and it will metabolize them completely differently. They go through different pathways. They have different results. So, yeah, ingredients matter and sometimes you can’t just say I’m going to give 250 calories and not pay attention to what form those calories come, because your cat will metabolize meat differently from cookies.

Jenny: 我知道運動也是一項我們可以為胖貓做的事.

I know that exercise is one of the things that you can do for an obese cat.

Jean Hofve: 是的. 讓貓咪運動不太容易, 我有看過YouTube上有一些貓咪在跑跑步機.

Yeah and you know, it’s not easy to get a cat to exercise. I have seen on Youtube there are videos of cats on treadmills.

Jenny: 真的假的?

Really?

Jean Hofve: 有些貓咪會在跑步機上跑. 有趣的是, 有人做了放大版的倉鼠滾輪給貓用.

Some cats will run on the treadmill. It’s pretty funny actually and there is now, like they make a giant hamster wheel that’s big enough for cats.

Jenny: 喔, 我有看過那個.

Oh, yes I saw that on My Cat from Hell.

Jean Hofve: 對某些豹貓及暹羅貓這種高能量的貓咪來說, 這可能是件好事. 我不知道你甚至能不能夠讓胖貓站到上面去, 然後讓他自己玩, 他大概會去找個舒適的地方睡覺, 但大部分的貓咪會喜歡那個玩具.

Da bird也是一個很不錯的玩具. 它的尾端有羽毛, 這些羽毛對貓咪來說看起來很有趣, 你在空中揮來揮去的時候會發出聲響. 就像鳥的羽毛一樣, 聽起來就像小鳥在飛, 我的貓咪非常喜歡; 另一個是Cat Dancer. 不同的是, 你必須握在玩具的尾端. 

你不能相信貓咪會自己去做運動. 你必須參與. 如果你想要貓咪健康, 最重要的是你必須跟他們一起玩, 這可以增進你們之間的感情. 笑聲是最好的藥物. 相信我, 當貓咪在玩這些玩具時, 是很好笑的.

而且你可以從中得到樂趣, 你可以扮演那隻小鳥, 老鼠, 或是你可以跑到沙發的一角, 看他們趴下然後搖搖屁股飛過整個房間來追你. 這對每個人都有好處. 對大部分的貓咪來說, 10~15分鐘的激動遊戲是足夠的. 在野外, 相較來說他們並不花這麼多時間狩獵. 我有看過一篇文章在講人類的狩獵者及採集者, 他們並不會花很多的時間在狩獵與採集. 所以人賴有多餘的時間可以發展藝術, 音樂及文化等等. 像貓一樣有效率的狩獵者並不花那麼多的時間狩獵, 但是他們會整天動來動去, 就像他們會在公寓裡面走來走去, 窩在沙發上都不動, 因為他們沒什麼事做.

養兩隻貓是很好的, 因為兩隻貓會一起玩, 或是至少去煩對方. 其中一個會被煩到受不了而站起來走開. 這會比只是躺在那邊好.

我有一些食物玩具(漏食球), 你可以把零食或是小東西放在裡面, 我會放一些乾糧在裡面, 我出門的時候他們就會把那個東西滾來滾去以得到裡面的食物. 我不建議餵乾乾或是乾糧, 但我把它當作零食來用. 做為點心來說這並不壞, 只要不是當作主食就OK.

我也用這些乾乾當做訓練或是轉移注意力的工具, 因為有時候在我跟我的電腦之間會佔太多的貓, 這個空間只夠容納兩隻, 然後第三次世界大戰就開始了. 我手邊都會有一小盒的點心, 我就把乾乾丟到房間的另一角, 他們會追在那後面, 有其他事情做就不會在我這邊爭睡覺的位置了.


Yes, and for some Bengals, Siamese really high energy cats, that might be a great thing. I don’t know if you are going to get an obese cat to even step up into it let alone do much besides find it a comfortable place to sleep, but almost any cat will fall for the right toy.
And Da bird is a really good one. It’s the one Jackson uses on My Cat from Hell. It’s a terrific toy. It’s got feathers on the end. The feathers are in a configuration that is really funny looking, but when you swinging it through the air it makes a flappy noise.  You know like bird feathers. It actually sounds like a bird flying and my cats love it and they make a couple of different toys like that: Cat Dancer is another one. But the thing is you have to be on the other end of the toy.

You can’t trust your cat to exercise himself. You need to participate. If you want your cat to be healthy, that is the most important thing because you are engaging and you are improving your relationship. You’re getting off your butt, not a bad thing. After all, laughter is the best medicine, as they say, and believe me, a cat that really gets going on one of these things, is hilarious.

And you get to have fun, you get to be the bird. You get to be the mouse. You get to run around the corner of the couch and you get to see them crouch down and wriggle their butts and come flying across the room. It’s hysterical! It’s really, really good for everybody. 10 or 15 minutes of rigorous play is maybe enough for most cats. In a wild, they don’t spend all that much time hunting you know comparatively. I remember seeing an article on human hunter/gatherers and they really didn’t spend a lot of time hunting and gathering. It didn’t take that much effort to feed themselves and that’s how humans managed to develop things like art and music and civilization and things like that. An efficient hunter like a cat doesn’t spend a lot of time hunting, but they are moving around quite  a bit in a day, a lot more than what they are moving around most of the time if they are living in an apartment and just being a couch potato because they don’t have any encouragement to do anything else.

It’s good to have 2 cats because two cats will play with each other or at least annoy each other. One will be annoyed enough to get up and walk away. That’s better than just laying there.
I have the food bowl toys and you can put treats or little things in there that…I put a little bit of dry food in there when I’m going to be gone so that they can roll it around and get, you know, a couple of kibbles here and there. I don’t recommend feeding kibbles or dry food, but I use it as a treat. It is not necessarily horrible as a treat, but it is not there main sustenance. It’s a treat.
And I use it for training and to distract them and if I start piling up too many cats between me and the computer, which there is room for two but that’s not always all that wants to be there. Then we start having…we start generating World War III and, it’s very simple for me to have a little box here of treats that then I can just throw across the room and then they all go after that and then they have something better to do than get all wound up fighting about who gets the best sleeping spot.

Jenny: 是的. Charlie跟Tigg的獸醫也建議我這麼做. 如果你用丟的給他們點心, 而不是放在他們面前, 他們就必須去追逐點心.

Right. Charlie’s and Tigg’s vet recommends that too. If you are giving them treats, instead of putting it down in front of them, throw them so they have to chase them.

Jean Hofve:  是阿, 要丟到房間的另一角. 看他們跑來跑去很好笑.

Yeah, throw them across the room. I’ve got cats running every which way. It’s hilarious and it gets them off their butts.

Jenny: 我在我的網站有幫很多不同的產品做試用. 有一間公司的玩具設計讓貓咪必須移除骨頭或是滑過一些東西才能吃到點心.

Yeah. Actually I product test a bunch of different products for Floppycats. I’m going to say it wrong, but there’s a Swedish designer, Nina Ottosson. The Company of Animals but the cats have to figure out how to remove the bone or they have to slide something over to get to the treat.

Jean Hofve: 那是腦部運動, 也有體能運動. 非常好.

That’s mental exercise, it’s physical exercise. It’s fabulous.

Jenny: 是阿, 我覺得這個不錯. 那如果貓咪已經很肥了呢? 我是說, 肥胖會造成哪些問題? 為什麼我們要注意貓咪是否肥胖?

Yeah, I think that it’s great. So what if your cat’s fat? I mean, what sort of problems does obesity cause? Why should you care if your cat is fat?

Jean Hofve: 脂肪不是一個被動的組織. 它不是就在那邊無所作為. 它會製造荷爾蒙. 會產生一些發炎因子. 這會導致很多慢性疾病. 糖尿病一直都是大家認為會造成的疾病, 因為很多貓咪會得到第二型糖尿病, 在人類是因為吃了高碳水化合物的糟糕飲食, 貓咪的糖尿病十分難治療. 你永遠永遠都不會想要貓咪得到那個疾病. 也有很多會得到膀胱的問題, 我發現這些貓咪會比較容易有結晶,結石及泌尿道感染. 我從來就不曾從瘦貓身上取出結石.

肥貓比較會有消化的問題. 便秘是一個很大的問題. 對任何人來說這都不是很好處理的問題. 他們比較會有發炎性腸躁症及其它的發炎疾病. 當然, 多餘的體重對於關節也是多餘的壓力. 他們會有關節炎. 他們的心臟及血壓也會被影響. 一個小布拉雞的貓咪心臟要送血到一隻10公斤的貓咪全身, 天阿, 這不是件好事.

貓咪的心臟就跟雞心一樣小. 這不是一個大到足以送血液到一個巨大的貓咪全身的心臟. 所以, 這會造成很多的心臟疾病. 肥貓有比較多的氣喘及過敏. 另外一個很難處理的是, 如果你的貓咪很胖, 然後他突然開始不吃東西, 這有很高的機率會造成肝衰竭, 肝臟脂肪代謝障礙及脂肪肝, 因為脂肪的代謝損壞, 而肝臟又是很敏感的器官. 當你停止食物供給, 這對肝臟來說會是很大的壓力, 肝臟會因此而罷工. 我只在瘦貓中看過一次.

Well, fat is not a passive tissue. It doesn’t just sit there. It produces hormones. It produces inflammatory factors. It contributes to a lot of chronic diseases. Diabetes is always the one that everybody always points to because cats get Type 2 Diabetes, which is what humans get from eating high carb, crappy diets and Diabetes, boy that is tough to treat in a cat. You would really, really, really rather not go there. I see more bladder problems. I see more crystals and stones and urinary tract infections. I’ve never taken stones out of a skinny cat.

Fat cats tend to get a lot more digestive problems. Constipation is a big one. Boy there is nothing worse than a 20 pound constipated cat. That is not fun to deal with for anybody. They just… they get more Inflammatory Bowel Disease and those kinds of inflammatory diseases. Of course, the extra weight comes extra pressure on the joints. They develop arthritis, usually they wouldn’t have otherwise. Their heart and blood pressure can be affected. It’s still a little, teeny, tiny, cat heart and it has to pump blood to 20 pounds of cat. Boy, that ain’t good.

A little cat heart is not a whole lot bigger than the heart that you’d find in a chicken. You know, if you get a whole chicken at the market. That is not a very big heart to be moving blood around a great, big kitty. So, you can create a lot of heart disease. I see more asthma in fat cat and more allergies. The other really tricky thing is if your cat is fat and for some reason stops eating, it has a much higher chance of developing liver failure: hepatic lipidosis, fatty liver disease because the fat metabolism is already is screwed up and the liver is very sensitive. When you disrupt the food supply to an already kind of schizophrenic, you know already going, “Woo, woo”, you know it’s under a lot of pressure. You know, it’s-it’s the liver has so many jobs to do and the liver will just freak out and shut down. You don’t see, I’ve only seen that in a skinny cat once.

Jenny: 要怎樣能簡單的減重.

How simple it could be by just eliminating the obesity.

Jean Hofve: 重點是要以正確的方式給予貓咪所需要的食物, 而不是只是把食物一直放出來給他們. 馬跟牛24小時都在吃草, 貓不需要.

有一些研究發現貓咪一天會吃15~20次. 如果你是一隻在實驗室的貓咪, 你沒什麼事情好做, 你當然就用吃來打發時間, 如果你是在群體裡面, 吃東西也會變成一種競爭. 我不相信這些研究的實際性, 你家的貓可能一天會吃8~9隻老鼠, 但是他一次出去會抓2~3隻, 吃掉, 然後剩下時間用來睡覺. 

他不會就抓一隻老鼠, 下一個小時再抓另一隻. 這不是他做事的方法, 這不合乎邏輯. 如果有人在我桌上放了一整堆的Oreos, 不管我的意志力多強, 每次我經過的時候一定都會抓一片來吃, 這個誘惑就跟乾乾一樣. 我很喜歡Fritos跟Twinkies(兩種均為餅乾), 我對這兩種都過敏, 但這無法阻止我去吃它們. 如果是你, 你只要有機會就會去吃它一下. 但你為什麼要給貓咪這個機會? 我們是家裡的大人! 我們應該要給對他們來說是好的食物, 他們天生應該吃的東西. 我有一個理論, 我不給他們最喜歡的食物, 我給他們最好的. 如果他們不喜歡, 也不吃那麼多, 只有餓的時候才吃. 我想這是一個比較好的情況, 因為你給他們健康的食物, 而他們吃的量也比較適當. 

人們會因為寵物的喜好而買食物. 你對小孩會這麼做嗎? 有一件事是永恆的真理, 我們越了解寵物的營養學, 我們吃的就更好. 當我開始研究寵物食品時, 我發現很多寵物食品是用人類不吃的東西製成, 這嚇壞我了, 在我知道這些事情後, 我學會讓自己也吃比較好的食物. 

Yes. Well obesity is usually just a matter of feeding a diet that is more in tune with what a cat needs and feeding it in an appropriate fashion, not just feeding it out all the time. You know, horses graze 24 hours a day, cows graze 24 hours a day. Cats should not be grazing 24 hours a day.

There have been studies done and they’ve find that cats left to their own devices will eat 15 to 20 times a day. Well, hello, if you are a cat in a lab and you don’t have anything better to do 24 hours a day, yeah you are going to eat out of boredom, and you are going to eat out of competition if you are in a colony. I don’t think those are realistic at all. Your average field cat if left to its own devices would eat probably 8 or 9 mice a day, but it would go out and it would catch 2 or 3 at once, eat them and then go sleep it off.

It wouldn’t catch a mouse and then in an hour catch another mouse and then in another hour catch…and then 50 minutes later catch another. You know, that’s not how it works. It doesn’t make sense. Yeah, I mean if somebody left a pile of Oreos on my table – no matter how good my will power might be, I’m probably going to eat one every time I walk by. You know, that’s temptation and dry food is like the Frito and Twinkie Diet. I love Fritos and I love Twinkies. I’m allergic to both of them, but that doesn’t stop me. You know, you are going to eat them if given the choice, but why give them the choice? We are the grownups here! We should be feeding them what’s good for them, what they are designed to eat. You know, I actually have a philosophy. I don’t feed them what they like the best. I feed them what is best for them. If they don’t like it that much, they’re not going to eat as much. They’re not going to eat when they are not hungry. I think that it’s kind of a better situation. You give them healthy food and they are more apt to eat a more appropriate amount of it.

People buy food based on their animal’s preferences. Would you do that with a kid? One thing is certainly true, the more we learn about nutrition and pets, the better we eat. I guilted myself into eating a lot better when I started researching pet food because pet food is just left over of the human food industry. What I learned about pet food scared the crap out of me. I eat much better now than I did before I knew all this stuff.

Jenny: 你說的這個很有趣, 這讓我三思了一下.

Yeah. That’s funny that you say that. It makes me think twice too.

Jean Hofve: 我們知道防腐劑是什麼, 也知道食物裡有加, 這是很危險的! 你是大人, 你應該決定晚餐裡應該要有些什麼.

Yeah. I mean, we know about where all those preservatives are, we know that there’s… I mean Danger! Danger!  You are the grownup. You get to say what’s for dinner.

Jenny: 這是所有我對肥胖有的問題了. 我有漏掉哪些你覺得很重要的嗎?

Right. Well, those were all the questions I had concerning obesity. Did I miss anything that you think is important to cover?

Jean Hofve: 我想沒有. 肥胖跟熱量進出有關, 也和熱量的來源有關. 我想那就是那些所謂的營養學家失敗的地方. 我們必須要更有常識, 因為似乎很多人都忘了這些. 

I don’t think so. It does have to do with calories in and calories out, but it does matter what kind of calories and, you know, I think that’s where the nutritionists and so called experts are really falling down. We need to apply some common sense here because everybody else seems to have forgotten it.

Jenny: 我同意. 非常感謝你. 謝謝你的時間, 知識及有趣的故事. 我喜歡那個搖屁屁的畫面, 因為那個畫面總是讓我大笑.

I agree. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate your time and your knowledge and your fun stories. I like the visual of the wiggling the butt thing because that’s one of the things that makes me laugh all the time.

Jean Hofve: 讓我告訴你一個我最喜歡的肥貓故事. 有一個人帶了25磅(約11公斤)的貓咪過來. 我說 "你餵他吃什麼?" 他說 "我每天餵他四分之一杯的W/d" 而這個食物是設計用來作為體重管理的.

四分之一杯並不是很多. 如果貓咪這麼胖, 代謝率會降低, 開始儲存熱量, 但這不足以支持一隻26磅的貓咪. 我問 "有餵其他的嗎?" 他說 "一天16個點心" 16! 你是開玩笑的嗎?16! 嗯, 我告訴他我的想法, 後來我再也沒看過他. 我希望那隻貓咪過得很好. 他不想要聽到的是 "我要你給貓咪正確的食物及盡可能最好的營養." 他想要讓貓咪保持這樣, 因為他一天給他16個點心. 對狗狗來說, 很多的點心含有很高的脂肪. 我知道我們是在談貓咪, 但是你會很驚訝這些點心內含有多少的熱量. 這是非常嚇人的. 所要要非常注意貓咪吃進嘴巴的東西.

所以, 要多注意. 多用你的腦袋, 少一點脂肪.

Let me tell you my favorite fat cat story. I had a guy come in with a 25 pound cat.  And I said, “What do you feed him?” He said, “I feed him a quarter cup of WD a day,” which is a weight loss food.

A quarter of a cup, that isn’t very much food. Now, you know, when you are that fat, your metabolic rate goes down, you start conserving calories, but that’s not enough to support a 26 pound cat. I asked, “Anything else?” He said, “Well 16 treats a day.” 16! Are you kidding me? 16! Well, I told him what I thought and I never saw him again. I hope the cat did okay. He didn’t want to hear, “I want you to do what’s right for the cat and give him the best nutrition possible.” He wanted to do what he felt like doing and having his cat large because he gave him 16 treats a day. You do remember those hidden calories, you know. For dogs, a lot of treats, can be high in fat. I know we are talking cats, but you’d be surprised how many calories are in some of these treats. It’s pretty shocking. So, just be conscious that everything that goes into your pets mouth counts.

So, just pay attention. Pay attention. Use your head. Cut the fat.

Jenny: 再次謝謝你. 我真的很感謝. 希望我們能繼續關於貓食的討論.

Okay, well. Thank you again. I really appreciate it. Hopefully we can continue with the cat food discussion and the transitioning thin in another podcast.

Jean Hofve: 我從來都不厭倦討論食物.

Yeah, I never get tired of talking about food.

Jenny: 我也是, 就算我已經成功做了食物轉換. 我是說, 可能所有有貓咪便便或便秘問題而email給我的人, 他們的寵物一直都吃乾乾, 而有些會說 "是阿, 只吃乾乾" 或是 "只是一點點乾乾, 大部分是濕食" 但總是有乾乾參與其中.

Me neither, not after I’ve seen the success of the transition. I mean, probably everybody that emails me with a cat poop or a constipation problem or the stools too loose or whatever, their animal is always eating dry food and it doesn’t matter…some will say, “Yeah, it’s dry food only” or “Just a little bit of dry, mostly wet,” but every single time there is dry food involved.

Jean Hofve: 我遇過一隻過重的糖尿貓, 主人早上跟傍晚各給他8顆乾乾, 所以他在幫她打胰島素的時候她會有點事情可做, 但她的病情並沒有好轉, 最後我終於跟他說 "你必須停止給她乾乾" 而他停止了. 每天16個乾乾, 看起來好像不算什麼, 之後, 我們馬上量了數值, 結果很驚人.

Yeah. I had a diabetic kitty that was overweight and the owner gave him 8 kibbles in the morning and the evening so he’d have something to do while she gave him his Insulin shot and we could not regulate this cat for any amount of money. There was no way, and I finally said you’ve got to stop the kibbles and she stopped. Those 16 little pieces of kibble a day, those little, tiny, round, little…That’s nothing. You would think that wouldn’t make a difference. We regulated that cat instantly. It was amazing.

Jenny: 哇.

Wow.

Jean Hofve: 這就是乾乾對血糖的破壞性. 這真的把他們搞壞了. 我可以跟你講講乾乾的危險性, 有很多可以聊. 

That’s how disruptive to blood sugar kibble is. It really screws them up. I can talk to you about the dangers of dry food. We can have a whole thing on that.

Jenny: 太好了.

Good.

Jean Hofve: 所有人都說生食很危險. 嗯. 在人身上爆發的沙門氏桿菌疫情會比狗食多嗎? 有多少狗狗因乾狗糧而死亡? 無數個! 現在, 危險在哪裡? 我們聊這個可以聊好幾周.

Everybody says raw food is dangerous. Well, how many outbreaks of Salmonella have we had in people than dog food? How many die from dry dog food? A zillion! Now, where’s the danger? You know, we can go on for weeks with that.

Jennifer: 是阿.

Yes.

Jean Hofve: 而我們會, 我們必須! 我們必須征服! (應該是指聊好幾周都要把他聊完)

And we will. We shall! We shall conquer!

Jennifer: 我很興奮要聊這個, 我想這會幫助很多的貓咪.

Well I love it. I’m excited about these; I think that it will help a lot of kitties.

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Meow Emperor

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  • 以路馬麻
  • 偶家貓咪是太瘦了~~
  • 正常偏瘦一點點是OK的啦~~

    Meow Emperor 於 2012/05/15 22:23 回覆

  • 訪客
  • 您好,辛苦版主翻譯這麼長的文章,真是非常好的資訊。請教一下,因為大陸的網站沒辦法看到痞客幫,我很想把文章轉載到那邊的愛貓論壇,但是又沒辦法給鏈接。能不能請您開通右鍵功能,讓我可以複製粘貼呢? 一定會注明原文以及翻譯的出處的。請指教,謝謝。Meekie字
  • 您好
    建議您可以使用電腦截圖的方式分享
    謝謝

    Meow Emperor 於 2013/08/25 00:43 回覆

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